Jewish protest

[pski215]

i would have voted for a government that would not attack a sovereign nation...

[Eric5273]

Originally Posted by pski215

i would have voted for a government that would not attack a sovereign nation...

I agree 100%! Clearly you didn't vote for George W. Bush then! (Iraq, Liberia, Haiti)


But as we know, in a democracy we each only have one vote. I guess the more important question is this:

If your government (which you did not vote for but the majority of your fellow citizens did) did indeed attack a sovereign nation, and that nation responded back with deadly force that resulted in the death of one of more family members, would you blame your own government, or would you blame the country that attacked you?

[pski215]

depends what the reason of attack was. If we just blatantly launched an attack then yes i would blame the government, HOWEVER you must realize sovereign nations fight on a battle field not behind their civilians, that is the problem with fighting terrorists such as the insurgents in Iraq and Gaza aswell as Lebanon in 2006, and if you had an Military knowledge you would understand that however you just want to side with any conspiracy theory that pops up when you open your email.

[Eric5273]

Originally Posted by pski215

.....HOWEVER you must realize sovereign nations fight on a battle field not behind their civilians, that is the problem with fighting terrorists such as the insurgents in Iraq and Gaza as well as Lebanon in 2006.....

I'll add a few more to your list:

1) French resistance fighting the Nazis during WWII

2) Viet Cong fighting the French in the 1950s and later on the Americans in the 1960s and 1970s

3) Mujahadeen fighting the Russians in Afghanistan in the 1980s

4) Irgun (the Zionist Jewish rebels in Palestine) fighting against the British in the 1940s

5) African National Congress fighting the Apartheid governments in South Africa and Rhodesia (Zimbabwe)


It's called guerrilla warfare, and many groups you both approve of and don't approve of have done it. When you don't like them, you call them terrorists, and when you do like them, you call them freedom fighters. It involves surprise attacks on your enemy and on the establishment in order to create chaos, and then blending back into the popuation so you cannot be found. It always results in civilian deaths and destruction to the general infrastructure.

Whether or not it is a good thing or not is for another discussion. But don't be selective about it. Either you are for it or against it. As for myself, I am against it. I think the methods of Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr. produce far better results. But obviously most of the world does not agree.

[StanF18]

Originally Posted by pski215

..... you just want to side with any conspiracy theory that pops up when you open your email.

so true

Originally Posted by pski215

you use a regurgitated ideology, you have no experience in the middle east and express idiotic opinions.

How else can he express his undying hatred of Israel and everything it stands for?? He will side with Hamas and defend their tactics with any chance he gets, using extremely twisted and convoluted arguments of moral equivalence. But you have to realize, this is the same individual that's trying to convince us that Al-Qaeda tried to MINIMIZE casualties on 9/11, by crashing into the towers BEFORE 9 AM.

[Eric5273]

Originally Posted by StanF18

He will side with Hamas and defend their tactics with any chance he gets, using extremely twisted and convoluted arguments of moral equivalence.

I resent that you say I side with Hamas or support their tactics. I did nothing of the sort.

You know during the civil rights movement in the 1960s, Malcolm X and many other civil rights leaders called Dr. King an "uncle tom" and said he was siding with the white man by preaching non-violence methods of resistance.

There is a difference between siding with Hamas, and thinking that the best way to defeat Hamas is through peaceful methods.

I believe fighting Hamas only makes them stronger. I think the methods you support help Hamas. If anything it is you who side with Hamas. As is evidenced by the article I just posted last night, the attacks which you supported have greatly helped Hamas. Good job! If I were Hamas, I would hope that people like you decide future Israeli policy.

In the last 20 years, the only Israeli policy that has hurt Hamas was the signing of the Oslo Accords. Following the signing of that peace treaty, Hamas approval ratings among Palestineans dropped below 10% and for the 5 years following that treaty, there was not a single attack by Hamas on anyone. Perhaps you should take a lesson from that in deciding what policies you support, unless you do indeed support Hamas.

For someone who claims to support Israel, you sure don't act like it. You act like someone who wants Israel to be in a war with no end, and would be pleased with such a war. How many more Israelis and Palestineans have to die before you are happy? How much higher does Hamas' approval rating have to go before you are happy? If it reaches 90% would that be high enough, or do you think Israel should aim for a perfect 100%?

[StanF18]

Originally Posted by Eric5273

"I resent that you say I side with Hamas or support their tactics. I did nothing of the sort."

Oh really Eric? Let's see:

You've just spent countless hours at the keyboard giving justification for Hamas' every deed, on this thread (and on others). You give justification for their morally reprehensible tactics, while bashing Israel's attempt to defend her citizens from indiscriminate rocket fire. You refuse to call Hamas "terrorists", even though I took your bait and clearly defined the term for you earlier. And now, all of a sudden, you deny that you are siding with them???!! Puh-leeze! You can't have it both ways. Your moral compass is skewed 180 degrees. You have condemned Israel at every opportunity, on this thread and on others. You cry foul at their every attempt to protect their citizenry. And what makes these condemnations truly shameful, is that you being Jewish, YOU of all people fail to understand that 70 years ago (before Israel) it would have been YOUR ass in the ovens along with every other Jew.

What you present as "evidence" of Hamas' popularity is not "evidence". It is hearsay. I'm sure if Stalinist Russia took a poll of Stalin's popularity, his approval rating would be 99.9% (with the 0.1% of disapprovers being taken out back and promptly disposed of). Hamas rules through terror, not only of Israelis, but of their own people. So there can be no true "poll" to get inside the mind of Plaestinian civilians. The real "evidence" here is physical, and clear as day for the world to see: the rocket fire into Israel has stopped. Because Israel did what they had to do, and what any sovereign nation would do in that situation.

[Eric5273]

Originally Posted by StanF18

You've just spent countless hours at the keyboard giving justification for Hamas' every deed, on this thread (and on others).

I never gave justification for a single thing they did. If you claim that I did, then please point out the post number and quote where I said they were justified for what they did.\

I simply have pointed out over and over that Israel's strategy is not protecting their people, but instead actually helping Hamas grow stronger. If Israel wants to protect their people, they need a major change in strategy.

Originally Posted by StanF18

What you present as "evidence" of Hamas' popularity is not "evidence". It is hearsay. I'm sure if Stalinist Russia took a poll of Stalin's popularity, his approval rating would be 99.9% (with the 0.1% of disapprovers being taken out back and promptly disposed of). Hamas rules through terror, not only of Israelis, but of their own people. So there can be no true "poll" to get inside the mind of Plaestinian civilians.

Hamas does not rule or have any control in the West Bank. In fact, Hamas rallies are outlawed in the West Bank and many Hamas leaders have been put in prison there. Yet the poll taken shows more people in the West Bank think Hamas won the war than in Gaza. Furthermore, the poll was not taken by Hamas. It was taken by an anti-Hamas, pro-Fatah group based in Jerusalem.

[pski215]

you use a regurgitated ideology, you have no experience in the middle east and express idiotic opinions. when you give your home back to the native americans we will give ours back. I am done arguing with you.

[Eric5273]

Originally Posted by pski215

you use a regurgitated ideology, you have no experience in the middle east and express idiotic opinions. when you give your home back to the native americans we will give ours back. I am done arguing with you.

Ok...here is some things specifically on the Middle East:

Have you ever hear of Irgun?

90% of those who fought in the 1947 Independence War for the state of Israel were member of Irgun. Irgun's leader was Menachem Begin, who was the first Prime Minister of Israel.

Irgun was a terrorist group. They blew up trains, busses, buildings, etc. Their attacks were primarily on civilian targets, the goal being to cause chaos.

This is from the above article:

In 1948, The New York Times published a letter signed by a number of prominent Jewish figures including Hannah Arendt, Albert Einstein, Sidney Hook, and Rabbi Jessurun Cardozo, which described Irgun as a "a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine". The letter went on to state that Irgun and the Stern gang "inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and widespread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute."

Soon after World War II, Winston Churchill said "we should never have stopped immigration before the war", but that the Irgun were "the vilest gangsters" and that he would "never forgive the Irgun terrorists."



I've heard similar claims made by you against Hamas. As much as it pains you to face reality, they are 99% the same, and any student of history simply has to laugh at Israel's current stance on terrorism. The state formed by terrorists is against terrorism. How ironic.