Jewish protest

[B-Line]

"I wish we didn't need this law, I'm not thrilled with it, but there was a government decision and I must follow it," he said.

Controversy

But the minister in charge of relations with parliament, Gideon Ezra, has defended the bill on the grounds that 30 Israelis have been allegedly killed by Palestinians who gained citizenship and residency rights through marriage.


So in other words, prior to 2003, Palestinians could marry Israelis and gain citizenship. But then after a series of attacks caused by Palestinians who married an Israeli to gain citizenship, the Israeli government put a stop to it, in a clear effort to stop giving a vehicle for potential terrorists to exploit..

While the law clearly sucks, it makes sense for the security of Israel, which is more important than the individual rights of some of it's citizens, who have historically and continually exploited that right as a means to further attack from within.

[Eric5273]

Whether or not the law had a good reason for being passed is another issue. The Palestineans who are "rebelling" (for lack of a better word) are the ones who have NOT been offered citizenship. They are the ones who live in refugee camps for the past 40-60 years and who do not have the posibility of living normal lives. When you grow up in that kind of dispair, extremist types who preach the need to "fight back" sound amazingly attractive, while passive types who suggest negotiating with the enemy give the appearance of being cowards.

And the same goes for the Israeli side. Israeli leaders who respond with force and attack the enemy are much more popular than those who preach peace and negotiation with the enemy.

Both sides suffer from the same nationalism that causes these viewpoints, and until one side swallows their pride and refuses to fight back, like was done in the Indian Revolution or the American Civil Rights movement, there is never going to be peace. Non-violent resistance is the only thing that will lead to an independent Palestinean state.

[B-Line]

Eric, you keep reverting back to the notion that the Palestinians are some sort of innocent bystanders who have been unduly treated at the hands of imperialistic like Israel.. This is one of the main reasons why your argument holds no water. Understand these facts:

1) The majority of Palestinians do not now, did not then and will not in the future, ever accept the idea of Israel as a state.
2) Attacked Israel in an all out war, in effort to destroy it on numerous occasions.
3) Were given the opportunity for land and state hood but decided they would rather be in a prolonged war, sacrificing their children and their children's-children, rather than accept the idea of a Jewish state.
4) Even now, the only reason that some of the population even consider the acknowledgment of Israel is not because they believe in the idea that Jews deserve a government to protect themselves, but rather, they are tired of the never ending war and quite frankly, having their asses handed to them, over and over. But at any given time, the majority of Palestinens and Israels other hostile neighbors, would like to see the Jews pushed into the sea. - Remember Iraq shooting scud missiles at Israel during Desert Strike? Or Iran making statements that the Holocaust never happened?
5) Continue to mount war against Israel in the form of terrorism, supported by hostile neighboring countries that want to eradicate Israel.

Stop pretending that the Palestinians are some group of innocent victims that have been suppressed and taken advantage of by the big, bad, state of Israel.. That's complete and total HORSE-SHIT..

From the beginning the Palestinians tried to eradicate the state of Israel with the help of neighboring hostile countries. And while they may be a people of occupied land, they continue to mount attacks on Israel.

Israel is now and has always acted in an interest of self defense. This is not like the Native Americans and the expansion of the West.

You need to understand Eric, that Israelis re-actions go back way further than the war if 1967. That Palestinians have been killing Jews in that region since long before Gaza and West Bank occupation.

You can't make peace either, with a majority of the people, when there is still a huge minority that wants the destruction of Israel..

Your views and statements that Israel is an occupier, an evil nation hell bent on enslaving and ethnically cleansing Muslims is awfully close minded and one sided.

I'm not suggesting that Israel does everything right. But considering their history, the people who have attacked them, the makeup of their population and the pains the Jewish people have lived through to establish and maintain a homeland... I think their actions have largely been appropriate considering the circumstances..

Jihad does not end with a two state solution. The desire to destroy Israel does not end but Israel not retaliating against rocket strikes. And your idea for peace in the middle east doesn't for one second, take into account, that you as a Jew, are one of the first people they would like to kill, provided they had the opportunity, simply because of your religion.

You should thank your stars every night that there is a nation, a homeland, a place that doesn't even know you, but would protect you till the ends of the earth, because they know the world's history and the prosecution that your ancestors before you had to live with in order to survive..

Cause without the state of Israel, this is what many regions of the world would try to do to you:

[Eric5273]

I'm just going to say one last thought on all of this, and then I think we're all talked out here:

I know that when we Americans talk about the Israeli/Palestinean situation, we think that the #1 priority of these people is the politics and conflict at hand. But actually, if you speak to people, you will find that most people of all nationalities and religions worldwide care more about basic things such as food, shelter, a good economy, a good job, safety, education for their kids, etc.

In countries where living conditions are good, the majority of people rarely even turn out to vote in elections, nor do most care what the results of those elections are. It's only when things get bad do people suddenly care about politics. Things are bad now in our economy and we have two wars going on, so we had record turnout in this last election. But ask people who they voted for in 1996, and you'll find that many people did not even vote.

Well, once again that is not just an American phenomenon. That is a human phenomenon. You may ask "what's the point of all of this?".

The point is that for the majority of Palestineans, if life was good for them, and they had jobs, food, a place to live, education for their kids, etc.....then they would not give a crap about Israel, nor would they pay any attention to violent extremist groups who advocate Israel's destruction.

The only reason people are training their kids to be suicide bombers is because things are so bad for them. In Gaza there is 75% unemployement. I'll say that again....75% unemployement. Here in the US, people are crying about 6% unempoyment. Imagine what things would look like at 75% unemployement. Furthermore, people do not have electricity in much of Gaza. People do not have enough food to eat. And this is not just in the last week. It has been this way for about 2 years now. And when things are bad, people will listen to anyone who says they have a way to fix it, even the most violent extremists.

Israel's only way to fix this is to come up with a strategy that results in a better quality of life for the Palestineans.

B-Line: Thoughout this entire thread, you continue to tell me why my suggestions won't work. What you have not done is tell me what you think Israel should do to achieve peace.

So lay out your plan. If you were in charge of Israel, what would you do, and how long do you estimate it would take to achieve peace?

[B-Line]

Originally Posted by Eric5273

The point is that for the majority of Palestineans, if life was good for them, and they had jobs, food, a place to live, education for their kids, etc.....then they would not give a crap about Israel, nor would they pay any attention to violent extremist groups who advocate Israel's destruction.

The only reason people are training their kids to be suicide bombers is because things are so bad for them.

B-Line: Thoughout this entire thread, you continue to tell me why my suggestions won't work. What you have not done is tell me what you think Israel should do to achieve peace.

So lay out your plan. If you were in charge of Israel, what would you do, and how long do you estimate it would take to achieve peace?

Eric,

WHile I would like to agree with your opinion that the only reason people are training their kids to be suicide bombers is because things are so bad for them, unfortunately your statement does not hold truth.

The majority of the terrorists that attacked on 9/11 were Saudi, educated and wealthy. Osama Bin Laden is an extraordinarily wealthy man and so are many of the people that fund terrorism.

The reason a lot of these people turn themselves into walking bombs is because they feel as though they will be rewarded in heaven in doing so. They are believers, fundamentalists, who are raised to believe that their sacrifice in life in the name of Allah will award them a place in heaven.

Their families get paid when they commit acts of terrorism and they are then worshiped in the forms of posters and memorials.

To them, it is to be a hero to sacrifice their lives in the name of religion in an effort to end the Jewish state.

There is no reasonable expectation that the hatred for the Jews and the Jewish state will diminish even with the donations of lands. There was violence for thousands of years before Israel against Jews and it will continue even after the possibility of some peace agreements.

The only reasonable solution at this time is to have a stronger army, with better weapons with higher education and intelligence. And everytime a new group of anti-zionists pops up and starts attacking, annihilate them. And if they hide behind schools as they launch their rockets, then it is they who have killed the children, not the Israelis.

But supporting these groups and not getting behind Israel only gives them strength. And that is what you are doing and much of Europe. You have given them reason to continue attacking Israel in the form of protests.

Israel is just trying to survive. It's not now nor has ever wanted the destruction of a Arab/Muslim territory. But if that Arab/Muslim territory only seeks to destroy Israel, then Israel must be preemptive and decisive.

If the rest of the world really gives a shit, let them help the Palestinians by doing ANYTHING other than condemning Israel.

Israel is not the bad guy. Israel is just a bunch of Jews and Arabs, trying to survive in an area, surrounded by people who want it's destruction. And while some of their measures may be extreme, they are necessary to the security of the state.

[Eric5273]

Originally Posted by B-Line

Eric,

WHile I would like to agree with your opinion that the only reason people are training their kids to be suicide bombers is because things are so bad for them, unfortunately your statement does not hold truth.

The majority of the terrorists that attacked on 9/11 were Saudi, educated and wealthy. Osama Bin Laden is an extraordinarily wealthy man and so are many of the people that fund terrorism.

The reason a lot of these people turn themselves into walking bombs is because they feel as though they will be rewarded in heaven in doing so. They are believers, fundamentalists, who are raised to believe that their sacrifice in life in the name of Allah will award them a place in heaven.

Their families get paid when they commit acts of terrorism and they are then worshiped in the forms of posters and memorials.

To them, it is to be a hero to sacrifice their lives in the name of religion in an effort to end the Jewish state.

There is no reasonable expectation that the hatred for the Jews and the Jewish state will diminish even with the donations of lands. There was violence for thousands of years before Israel against Jews and it will continue even after the possibility of some peace agreements.

The only reasonable solution at this time is to have a stronger army, with better weapons with higher education and intelligence. And everytime a new group of anti-zionists pops up and starts attacking, annihilate them. And if they hide behind schools as they launch their rockets, then it is they who have killed the children, not the Israelis.

But supporting these groups and not getting behind Israel only gives them strength. And that is what you are doing and much of Europe. You have given them reason to continue attacking Israel in the form of protests.

Israel is just trying to survive. It's not now nor has ever wanted the destruction of a Arab/Muslim territory. But if that Arab/Muslim territory only seeks to destroy Israel, then Israel must be preemptive and decisive.

If the rest of the world really gives a shit, let them help the Palestinians by doing ANYTHING other than condemning Israel.

Israel is not the bad guy. Israel is just a bunch of Jews and Arabs, trying to survive in an area, surrounded by people who want it's destruction. And while some of their measures may be extreme, they are necessary to the security of the state.

All I can say to this is that in my opinion, everything you said here is as valid as if you had written the reasons why the Communist Jews firebombed the Reichstag, or the reasons why the Spanish Navy sunk the USS Maine.

If I believed all that stuff to be true, then I would most likely share your opinions of the situation as well.

[B-Line]

Originally Posted by Eric5273

If I believed all that stuff to be true, then I would most likely share your opinions of the situation as well.

Oh yeah.. I forgot who I was talking to for a minute.. The guy who thinks that George W Bush and Dick Cheney, planned and executed the attack on the World Trade Center..

Why do I bother... ?

Eric, if you're so interested in world affairs and exposing the truth of history then why are you in the music business? Why aren't you a history teacher like your dad? And out of curiosity, what are your dads opinions of your crazy theories?

I'm guessing here for a second, you're like that daughter in the movie FOOTLOOSE. Her dad's a preacher so she goes against him and rebels by wearing her slutty red boots.

I think your theories on history have more to do with your relationship to your father, a history professor, then they do with real world events..

I think you need a shrink...

[Eric5273]

Originally Posted by B-Line

Why aren't you a history teacher like your dad? And out of curiosity, what are your dads opinions of your crazy theories?

My dad is not a history teacher. You are confusing me with Wagner.


My opinions have to do with what I read.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/21/inv.id.theft/
Director Robert Mueller has acknowledged that some of those behind last week's terror attacks may have stolen the identification of other people, and, according to at least one security expert, it may have been "relatively easy" based on their level of sophistication.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001...n.september112
False identities mislead FBI
The FBI acknowledged yesterday that some of the terrorists involved in the attacks last week were using false identities, as it emerged that at least two men had been wrongly implicated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/1559151.stm
Hijack 'suspects' alive and well


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/1558669.stm
Hijack 'suspect' alive in Morocco




When I read that some of the 19 guys they claimed were on those planes have not only turned out to still be alive, but have been interviewed on television and all had experienced "identity theft" in the recent past, I ask myself "why would someone who was going on a suicide mission use a fake ID of a known Islamic extremist?".

And the only reasons I can think of why someone would use a fake ID to commit a crime are these:

1) they needed the fake ID to get past security and get onto the plane and figured if they used their real ID they would get caught.

2) they didn't know it was a suicide mission and thought it would be easier to escape if authorities did not know who they were.


As for #1, if you were trying to get past security, the last person you would want to pretend you were was a known Islamic extremist. You would not use a fake ID of someone affiliated with al-Queda. So that theory goes bye-bye. That leaves #2.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001...m.september111
Attackers did not know they were to die
FBI investigators have officially concluded that 11 of the 19 terrorists who hijacked the aircraft on 11 September did not know they were on a suicide mission, Whitehall intelligence sources said last night. Unlike the eight 'lead' attackers, who were all trained pilots, they did not leave messages for friends and family indicating they knew their lives were over. None of them had copies of the instructions for prayer and contemplation on the eve of the attacks


The only problem with this bit of information is that the guys who used the fake IDs were the pilots or "lead attackers" as the article calls them. They were not the ones who were ignorant of the suicide mission. So #2 does not fit either.

So how about you answer the question: Who would use a fake ID of an Islamic extremist when trying to carry out a suicide mission?

The obvious answer: someone who was following orders.

And why would those making the decisions order these individuals to use a fake ID?

Answer: so that the crime could not be traced back to them.

Which leads to this question: Why use fake IDs of people who are affiliated with al-Queda?

Answer: to mislead authorities into thinking al-queda was behind the attacks.

If al-Queda had been behind the attacks, then there is no reason to use the fake IDs unless the fake IDs were to lead to another group.

Kind of like an episode of CSI here. Just follow the evidence. You don't have to be a genius. It's all very logical.


And BTW, the FBI still shows the pictures and bios of those guys on their website as 9/11 terrorists -- the ones who are still alive and were intereviewed on BBC television.

[B-Line]

Originally Posted by Eric5273

]

My opinions have to do with what I read.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/21/inv.id.theft/
Director Robert Mueller has acknowledged that some of those behind last week's terror attacks may have stolen the identification of other people, and, according to at least one security expert, it may have been "relatively easy" based on their level of sophistication.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001...n.september112
False identities mislead FBI
The FBI acknowledged yesterday that some of the terrorists involved in the attacks last week were using false identities, as it emerged that at least two men had been wrongly implicated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/1559151.stm
Hijack 'suspects' alive and well


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/1558669.stm
Hijack 'suspect' alive in Morocco




When I read that some of the 19 guys they claimed were on those planes have not only turned out to still be alive, but have been interviewed on television and all had experienced "identity theft" in the recent past, I ask myself "why would someone who was going on a suicide mission use a fake ID of a known Islamic extremist?".

And the only reasons I can think of why someone would use a fake ID to commit a crime are these:

1) they needed the fake ID to get past security and get onto the plane and figured if they used their real ID they would get caught.

2) they didn't know it was a suicide mission and thought it would be easier to escape if authorities did not know who they were.


As for #1, if you were trying to get past security, the last person you would want to pretend you were was a known Islamic extremist. You would not use a fake ID of someone affiliated with al-Queda. So that theory goes bye-bye. That leaves #2.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001...m.september111
Attackers did not know they were to die
FBI investigators have officially concluded that 11 of the 19 terrorists who hijacked the aircraft on 11 September did not know they were on a suicide mission, Whitehall intelligence sources said last night. Unlike the eight 'lead' attackers, who were all trained pilots, they did not leave messages for friends and family indicating they knew their lives were over. None of them had copies of the instructions for prayer and contemplation on the eve of the attacks


The only problem with this bit of information is that the guys who used the fake IDs were the pilots or "lead attackers" as the article calls them. They were not the ones who were ignorant of the suicide mission. So #2 does not fit either.

So how about you answer the question: Who would use a fake ID of an Islamic extremist when trying to carry out a suicide mission?

The obvious answer: someone who was following orders.

And why would those making the decisions order these individuals to use a fake ID?

Answer: so that the crime could not be traced back to them.

Which leads to this question: Why use fake IDs of people who are affiliated with al-Queda?

Answer: to mislead authorities into thinking al-queda was behind the attacks.

If al-Queda had been behind the attacks, then there is no reason to use the fake IDs unless the fake IDs were to lead to another group.

Kind of like an episode of CSI here. Just follow the evidence. You don't have to be a genius. It's all very logical.


And BTW, the FBI still shows the pictures and bios of those guys on their website as 9/11 terrorists -- the ones who are still alive and were intereviewed on BBC television.

I hope you all are reading this... Just proves what I was saying about Eric's opinion on world views. He still thinks that 9/11 was perpetrated by our government and the whole terrorist thing was a smoke screen.

And as evidence he is using reports from the media that came out 10 days after the attacks regarding persons on the planes.. Now for those of you that don't remember what was going on in this country on Sept 21, 2001, let me remind you, there was Anthrax scares, misinformation, general panic.

And Eric uses a misreport of identification as his evidence of a US cover up. Pretty pathetic Eric...

btw, if those people who were Al Quaeda whose Id's were stolen, than why would they volunteer to come to the United States? Why would they care about clearing their name with the US government... Clearly they stole and used those ID's because those people weren't on the terrorist watch list..

And of course there are going to be some mistaken identities in a shit storm like 9/11.

You really need to wise up Eric. Your views of world politics, corruption, conspiracy, etc. are so far over the edge that you can't smell your own bullshit.

I'm not suggesting that everything the news reports is always 100% accurate.. But to suggest that Israel is evil because it protects itself and that the US is responsible for attacking itself is nothing more than an embarrassment.

Again if you really believe all that than the fact that you run a music company and don't do anything in the realm of politics or education in an effort to expose the truth is just pathetic.. But in reality, I think you know your bullshit is thin.

Terrorists hijacked planes and blew up our civilians. Not the US government.
Israel is protecting itself from people that wish to destroy it, not co-exist with it.

Grow up.

[Dannyell]

Originally Posted by B-Line

I hope you all are reading this... Just proves what I was saying about Eric's opinion on world views. He still thinks that 9/11 was perpetrated by our government and the whole terrorist thing was a smoke screen.

And as evidence he is using reports from the media that came out 10 days after the attacks regarding persons on the planes.. Now for those of you that don't remember what was going on in this country on Sept 21, 2001, let me remind you, there was Anthrax scares, misinformation, general panic.

And Eric uses a misreport of identification as his evidence of a US cover up. Pretty pathetic Eric...

btw, if those people who were Al Quaeda whose Id's were stolen, than why would they volunteer to come to the United States? Why would they care about clearing their name with the US government... Clearly they stole and used those ID's because those people weren't on the terrorist watch list..

And of course there are going to be some mistaken identities in a shit storm like 9/11.

You really need to wise up Eric. Your views of world politics, corruption, conspiracy, etc. are so far over the edge that you can't smell your own bullshit.

I'm not suggesting that everything the news reports is always 100% accurate.. But to suggest that Israel is evil because it protects itself and that the US is responsible for attacking itself is nothing more than an embarrassment.

Again if you really believe all that than the fact that you run a music company and don't do anything in the realm of politics or education in an effort to expose the truth is just pathetic.. But in reality, I think you know your bullshit is thin.

Terrorists hijacked planes and blew up our civilians. Not the US government.
Israel is protecting itself from people that wish to destroy it, not co-exist with it.

Grow up.

hmm tell me m8...whats is the point of flying a jet into a most likely evacuated white house...because I am pretty sure it's not to kill as many civilians as possible...