Jewish protest

[Eric5273]

Originally Posted by jigaro

1. IS NATIONAL INTERESTS WHICH ARE NONE NAGOTIABLE, WHICH MEANS, NO MATTER WHICH ADMINISTRATION IS ELECTED, THESE INTERESTS WILL NOT BE TOUCHED, and Israel is in the National Interest, Obama wount change much, and he will support Israel thats a Given

Good observation. What you don't say is why Israel is such an important national interest. The reason is the power and influence of the AIPAC, which is by far the most powerful lobby in Washington. Good luck getting elected dog catcher if you get on their bad side. With the exception of a few "career" congressional representatives and senators, they have the ability to eject anyone from office.

[jigaro]

Originally Posted by Eric5273

Good observation. What you don't say is why Israel is such an important national interest. The reason is the power and influence of the AIPAC, which is by far the most powerful lobby in Washington. Good luck getting elected dog catcher if you get on their bad side. With the exception of a few "career" congressional representatives and senators, they have the ability to eject anyone from office.

Or in other words, we are discussing taboo? I was waiting for you to touch this subject, i will translate:
United States is controlled by wealthy Jewish Lobbiests, and thus they control the world order.
-Bill Gates, microsoft was not enough, now he is a PHILANTROPIST GOING TO AFRICA, my my my, imagine how much wealth is there, untouched waiting to be explored. American warships are seating along th coasts of African nations full of natural resources.
-George Soros, another PHILANTROPIST, has spend over 6 billion dollars in
so called donations, but the truth is, he has created OPEN SOCIETY INSTITUTE, and promotes democracies arround the world, and whats the most dangerous part is, HE FUNDS SO CALLED REVOLUTIONS ARROUND THE WORLD, WHICH FAIL CATASTROFICLY.
Need i say more? Lobbieng is not such a huge deal in States untill ELECTIONS come arround, It's what is done in the world afterwards this or that president is elect, the truth is you people might be shocked if you actually realize how powerless an American President can be at times.

[Eric5273]

American taxpayers pay for Israelis to have free health care, but don't even have them for themselves. I guess that is in our best national interest?

[jigaro]

Originally Posted by Eric5273

American taxpayers pay for Israelis to have free health care, but don't even have them for themselves. I guess that is in our best national interest?

You are mistaking if you think Americans pay only for Israeli healthcare.
-Sponsoring the Army? Weapons? I can imagine how expensive it could get if you are backing a country militarly which is constantly at war.

[X5rolls]

It's a bit late to make it an un-state.

[jigaro]

Originally Posted by X5rolls

It's a bit late to make it an un-state.

true

[B-Line]

Originally Posted by jigaro

To be honest, i believe this issue is way too complicated for us to discuss it on this forum.
-I just think it's kind of strange,that Israel is founded on a part of land that has all the water, and privilages, and Palestinians on the other hand have limited access to water.
-If you look at the historical maps, you will actually see that the state of palestine existed way before WW2
-On the other hand, talented and usefull people like Jews in fact should have a piece of land to live in, should not they?
-There was a resolution after WW2 which came up with the solution to grant Jews the state to live in, i believe there where 3.
1. was in Palestine
2. was Argentina
3. was not so sure, maybe someone can help me out.
SO this issue is so complicated, that i believe discussing it here will only hurt us and the cause.

Jig, I would like to directly answer and counter-point some of your questions and statements.

-I just think it's kind of strange,that Israel is founded on a part of land that has all the water, and privilages, and Palestinians on the other hand have limited access to water.
Water is now and has long been an issue. It's not just an Israeli/Palestinian conflict but also involves Jordan..


-If you look at the historical maps, you will actually see that the state of palestine existed way before WW2
You are confused because of the term PALESTINE. THe land of Israel used to be under the Ottoman Empire. After that it became part of the British territories. The area was called "PALESTINE" but there was no state. Furthermore, Christians , Jews and Muslims all lived in the land called Palestine. Nothing was taken away from anybody. It was British controlled land. Britain with the support of the UN divided the land called Palestine into two states, Israel and Palestine. Prior to that, it was just a territory inhabited by all. The Jews accepted the statehood and Israel became an official country. The Arab-Muslim population refused to recognize a Jewish state and thus did not accept the lands to be created under the term Palestine. But there was no Palestine country.

Then the Arab-Muslim population that didn't accept Israel as a state on 3 separate occasions, with the help of their Jew hating neighbors, attacked Israel in an effort to destroy it (Or were planning an attack..) The state of Israel then occupied territories that the Arab Muslim population turned down and occupied it for military strategy cause they kept getting attacked from there.

My point is, PALESTINE was just a name of a British territory that was then supposed to be divided between Muslim and Jewish states. So just like Canada is in N. America does not mean it's a United State of America.


-There was a resolution after WW2 which came up with the solution to grant Jews the state to live in, i believe there where 3.
There was a resolution after WW2 that gave BOTH, Jews and Muslims, living in the area called Palestine, a state to live in. Neither the Jews or the Muslims had the state prior to the resolution. It was a British territory and before that Ottoman Empire. It did not then and it does not now, belong to the Muslim Arab population that lived there and mostly co-existed with it's Jewish and Christian neighbors.

[jigaro]

Originally Posted by B-Line

Jig, I would like to directly answer and counter-point some of your questions and statements.

-I just think it's kind of strange,that Israel is founded on a part of land that has all the water, and privilages, and Palestinians on the other hand have limited access to water.
Water is now and has long been an issue. It's not just an Israeli/Palestinian conflict but also involves Jordan..


-If you look at the historical maps, you will actually see that the state of palestine existed way before WW2
You are confused because of the term PALESTINE. THe land of Israel used to be under the Ottoman Empire. After that it became part of the British territories. The area was called "PALESTINE" but there was no state. Furthermore, Christians , Jews and Muslims all lived in the land called Palestine. Nothing was taken away from anybody. It was British controlled land. Britain with the support of the UN divided the land called Palestine into two states, Israel and Palestine. Prior to that, it was just a territory inhabited by all. The Jews accepted the statehood and Israel became an official country. The Arab-Muslim population refused to recognize a Jewish state and thus did not accept the lands to be created under the term Palestine. But there was no Palestine country.

Then the Arab-Muslim population that didn't accept Israel as a state on 3 separate occasions, with the help of their Jew hating neighbors, attacked Israel in an effort to destroy it (Or were planning an attack..) The state of Israel then occupied territories that the Arab Muslim population turned down and occupied it for military strategy cause they kept getting attacked from there.

My point is, PALESTINE was just a name of a British territory that was then supposed to be divided between Muslim and Jewish states. So just like Canada is in N. America does not mean it's a United State of America.


-There was a resolution after WW2 which came up with the solution to grant Jews the state to live in, i believe there where 3.
There was a resolution after WW2 that gave BOTH, Jews and Muslims, living in the area called Palestine, a state to live in. Neither the Jews or the Muslims had the state prior to the resolution. It was a British territory and before that Ottoman Empire. It did not then and it does not now, belong to the Muslim Arab population that lived there and mostly co-existed with it's Jewish and Christian neighbors.

First i would like to point out that, i really appreciate the civil and friendly discussion regarding this sensitive subject, if it did not go this way, i would simply not come back to this thread.

1. I understand the water issue, and i guess as i mentioned it is a part of problem,

2. As for the rest of your points, ofcourse i agree with you in certein areas, but problem lies elswhere, and to be exact it goes waaaaay beyond WW2.
I'am christian myself, Eastern orthrodox, but even in a bible just like in a Choran, the land is described as the land of Arab people, and belonging to to People of Mesopotomia, even Jesus who was jewish himself touches upon this area.
Yes Jewish people did live in this part of the land, even back then, but it has always been mentioned as land of Arab palestinians, British did not come up with this term just by an accident.
But then during the crussade wars, which had nothing to do with religion in a first place,Arab land was devided up by certein then powerfull and wealthy nations, and that is exactly the reason why me and you are sitting near the computer now in a 21st century and saying that British devided it up for everyone to live in it.
Thats where the problem lies, British had nothing to do there and just like now, it was a mistake for anyone to go there and colonize such part of the world.
British didi have tendence to practice extrateriotorialism, and they still do as we speak now, in China they have pieces of land which belong to British and chinese people can not step a foot on that land, because by the international standarts and law, during extrateritorialism, if you have a piece of land in another country it is yours, and all this was a result of Opium Wars.
So problem lies way deeper then probably we can all comprehand.

[B-Line]

Jig,

For arguments sake:

Nomenclature

The name Canaan is mentioned frequently in the Bible. It refers to parts or all of the region between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea in antiquity[5] It is also sometimes used interchangeably with the Land of Israel, Palestine, Zion, the Holy Land or the Promised Land.[citation needed]
Canaan predates the name Land of Israel but describes the same land.[6] The classical Jewish view, as explained by Schweid, is that "Canaan" is the geographical name; the renaming as "Israel" prior to its invasion by the Israelites marks its sanctification, the origin of the Holy Land concept.[7] The region of Judaea existed by that name for from the 6th century BC until it was renamed "Palestina" by the Romans following the Bar Kokhba revolt against Rome in the 2nd century AD. In the Bible and elsewhere, Zion originally meant the region of and around Jerusalem but, because of the importance of this city, came to designate the whole of the Israelite land, as for example in the naming of Zionism.

But putting the religious ownership of the land to the side we need to be a little more pragmatic. The land belonged to the UK. They said:
Divide it into two states, Israel and Palestine. The Israelis said, Okay, thanks for giving us a Jewish state and giving holocaust survivors a place to live.
The Palestinians said, "Oh no, we don't want to recognize a Jewish state, the whole area should be ours!" and then they attacked Israel. So come the spoils of war and the Palestinians lost the land that they had already refused anyhow.

My point is further, that wasn't the first time that Muslim-Arabs tried to rid the world of Jews, nor the first time Germans, or Russians tried it either. The only difference is, now the Jews are armed to fight back and to suppress their enemies.

The Jewish state of Israel is a necessity. And it exists on land that has always had Jewish populations, holy sites and historical religious context.

The Jewish state is there to protect Jews from the continuing atrocities that have happened to them over and over and over again, throughout time.

From the holocausts, to the Spanish Inquisitions, to the Russian Pogroms, etc. And in every instance of Israels fight for survival, it has been attacked by neighboring hostile enemies who only care to destroy Israel because of it's Jewish leadership and citizenry.

It is the one, the only, Jewish homeland. And it's only the size of the state of New Jersey. The Middle East is tremendous and it's resources and fuels vast.. The only reason the Palestinians get the support from their neighbors is not because of what they may or may have not lost. But because they all have the same enemy, a Jewish lead state.

Anything less than an all out, defensive stance by Israel against hostile aggressions should be retaliated with equal or greater force.

[Eric5273]

double post....see the next post.