The War - Page 16

Eric5273 · #**151** 01-24-2007, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x54.4blue

So does this mean you are not liberal?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/liberal

--Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry

--Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.

No, I'd say I am a liberal.

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E61Silver · #**152** 01-24-2007, 09:03 PM

But you drive a SUV instead of a Hybrid?

crosvs · #**153** 01-24-2007, 09:36 PM

... to continue my discussion from http://www.xoutpost.com/lounge/25962-out-curiosity-why-our-news-sooooooo-local-3.html:

Quote:

Eric - I sometimes have a hard time figuring out why you live in the USA, partaking in its horrible capalistic society and exercising the freedoms guaranteed under its Constitution, when you hate it so much?

I also have a hard time figuring if you hate the POTUS, and generalize that hatred to all Americans, businesses, and institutions of government, of if you actually hate Americans, businesses, and institutions of government.

Whatever the case may be, I often also wonder how there are so few people in this country who are so enlightened as to what really happens, and the other 300 million of us are mindless dolts caught up in the government propoganda machine. Actually, maybe I'm more offended that the enlightened few actually believe that I have no mind of my own.

At least Scottie throws stones from another country. I don't agree with some (OK most, when it come sot politics) of the stuff she says, but she's not having it both ways.

One thing to remember Scottie - no one appointed us captain. It was thrust upon us when we were attacked, by terrorists, who wish to acquire WMD to do us even more harm. Prior to 9/11, there was actually a trend towards isolationism in this country - you leave us alone, we'll leave you alone. It all changed that day.

We can argue the Iraq war all day long and get about as far as our own Congress is getting (that would be nowhere). Personally, I think there is no doubt that our President and Congress overestimated the size of the mandate they were handed by the people. But, in our form of government, you live with it until you can change it.

However - we have the absolute inalienable right to act in our own self-defense. And, for better or for worse, depending upon your perspective, we have the will, the personnel, and the means to do so.

I often wonder if the self-righteous Europeans would turn the other cheek in the face of a terrorist attack on the scale of what happened to the US. I tend to doubt it. On the other hand, outside of the UK, there probably isn't a damn thing they could do about it either, for want of means and will.

As my best friend always says when he criticizes me, "hey, it's just part of my job description." In other words, if he, as my best friend, didn't point out my flaws ... then who would?!

In other words, as Americans, we have a DUTY to criticize our government and its policies -- NOT blindly follow it and just assume/pretend that it's good and right just out of blind national pride. Any chimpanzee can do that. I'd like to believe we are a little more intelligent than that.

As my Dad -- who's 100% American -- always says, "it is precisely BECAUSE I'm a proud American, BECAUSE I'm so patriotic, that I so strongly voice my crticisms of our present regime."

Put another way: suppose a Frenchman; and Italian; a Russian; a Brazilian; or anyone else NOT American, were to criticize our heretofore wonderful country. OBVIOUSLY we can VERY EASILY shut them up MERELY on the grounds that they are not American, e.g., what right do THEY have to criticize our land?

That then leaves ONLY AMERICANS to criticize the wrongs of our government. Thus, if WE do not do so ... then ... WHO WOULD?!

Indeed: I submit that *NOT* vehemently criticizing our governemnt is in fact the ANTITHESIS of true patriotism; vocal outcries of disapproval then ARE the most fundamental elements of a true patriot as it shows concern rather than blind following.

But as B-Line frighteningly suggests in the aforementioned thread, or as YellowJacket explictly states a few msgs above, if being American means only loving local news; explosions; deaths; and natural disasters; and if being American means never criticizing our government when it is clearly at fault ... then wow, y'all can keep your NASCAR.

But I for one am proud to be of this country, if only because we CAN speak up and voice our disapprovals, as opposed to the modernly corrupt Islamic regimes in Iran, for instance, where this very essence of nationalism is mutable by death -- an Islamic extremist corruption of what once was a beautiful and democratic society.

crosvs · #**154** 01-24-2007, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Stop thinking about productivity in terms of dollars and cents, and instead think of productivity in terms of what is being actually produced or accomplished. That is true productivity.

Well said, which is why my Dad was so apalled when I told him of our Econ prof's opening lecture in Econ 1 at UCLA several years ago: "Countries are poor because they choose to be poor."

Talk about skirting the main issue.

However, Eric, I must say I -- paradoxically -- both agree AND disagree with you quite literally at the same time. I AGREE with the logic you say, but, embarassingly, our econ dpt at UCLA did NOT have us read Marx, and so I cannot put aside the simple concepts of competition set forth by Adam Smith: what was that famous alliteration of his? Something like, "it's not because of the benevolence of the baker, the butcher, or the bread maker, that we have our bread; our meat; and our bread."

ALSO: how do you reconcile Marxism with what happened during the early colonial days of New England? Those first winters nearly took the lives all the colonists because they were operating with a communal system: there were no private personal or real property rights as we have them today, and the colonists nearly starved. But once they enacted a system of property rights, suddenly food shortages became a thing of the past and here we are today.

So that's something I cannot look past and see it as a rather profound indicator of, while communism/socialism may work at some level, it cannot work ultimately. Just look at Russia -- it's far better off today -- at least economically -- than it was back in the day.

KENT4.8IS · #**155** 01-24-2007, 11:42 PM

TFYQA, TFYQA, TFYQA

Let common sence prevail.

Peace.

ylwjacket · #**156** 01-25-2007, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosvs

... to continue my discussion from http://www.xoutpost.com/lounge/25962-out-curiosity-why-our-news-sooooooo-local-3.html:

As my best friend always says when he criticizes me, "hey, it's just part of my job description." In other words, if he, as my best friend, didn't point out my flaws ... then who would?!

In other words, as Americans, we have a DUTY to criticize our government and its policies -- NOT blindly follow it and just assume/pretend that it's good and right just out of blind national pride. Any chimpanzee can do that. I'd like to believe we are a little more intelligent than that.

As my Dad -- who's 100% American -- always says, "it is precisely BECAUSE I'm a proud American, BECAUSE I'm so patriotic, that I so strongly voice my crticisms of our present regime."

Put another way: suppose a Frenchman; and Italian; a Russian; a Brazilian; or anyone else NOT American, were to criticize our heretofore wonderful country. OBVIOUSLY we can VERY EASILY shut them up MERELY on the grounds that they are not American, e.g., what right do THEY have to criticize our land?

That then leaves ONLY AMERICANS to criticize the wrongs of our government. Thus, if WE do not do so ... then ... WHO WOULD?!

Indeed: I submit that *NOT* vehemently criticizing our governemnt is in fact the ANTITHESIS of true patriotism; vocal outcries of disapproval then ARE the most fundamental elements of a true patriot as it shows concern rather than blind following.

But as B-Line frighteningly suggests in the aforementioned thread, or as YellowJacket explictly states a few msgs above, if being American means only loving local news; explosions; deaths; and natural disasters; and if being American means never criticizing our government when it is clearly at fault ... then wow, y'all can keep your NASCAR.

But I for one am proud to be of this country, if only because we CAN speak up and voice our disapprovals, as opposed to the modernly corrupt Islamic regimes in Iran, for instance, where this very essence of nationalism is mutable by death -- an Islamic extremist corruption of what once was a beautiful and democratic society.

I don't know who your dad is, and I don't really understand all of what you are trying to say, other than your dad is 100% American.

It is our duty to quetion the gov't. What annoys me is that there is a certain class of people in this country who feel that they, and they alone, are the enlightened class, and if you don't agree with the, you are a mindless idiot.

You missed my point.

"Lethargy [is] the forerunner of death to the public liberty." --Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787.

ylwjacket · #**157** 01-25-2007, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric5273

With the wealth and resources we have in the United States, everyone could have practially everything they wanted, and there would still be extra resources to spare.

Regarding my business, I do enjoy what I do today. And I would enjoy it just as much even if I didn't own the company, but instead just managed it. I take pride in my work and would not put in any less effort. And if I didn't have to worry about making profit, the product I would produce could be a lot better as well.

Cool, so I can benefit off your hard work.

Or put another way, someone else can benefit off the fact that I risked everyting I own, my kid's college futures, and my family's well being to take the huge risk of starting my own company. My first 2 years, wherein I got 1 paycheck, would count for nothing now that we are more successful.

Everyone could share the welath and prosperity created by moy own hard work and willingness to take a risk.

Wait - 30 families fdo benefit, through gainful employment (avg salary of 70k). And, those who do nothing benefit - it's called taxes.

Eric5273 · #**158** 01-25-2007, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosvs

Just look at Russia -- it's far better off today -- at least economically -- than it was back in the day.

You think?

Russia's GDP is 40% lower today than it was in 1990, and they have the highest child poverty rate, and highest homelessness rate of any industrialized country in the world.

According to the Russian Interior Ministry, the homeless rate in Russia is between 2.76% and 3.44% and this number continues to increase.

And here's an article for you:

Number of Russian Homeless Children Nears Post-WW2 Rates

That is simply pathatic. WW2 resulted in most major cities in Russia being destroyed and over 20 million of their people being killed. Now in a time of peace, their child homeless rate is the same.

Here's the GDP patterns of a couple of former Soviet republics:

How is capitalism treating them?

crosvs · #**159** 01-25-2007, 03:17 AM

Eric- i stand corrected, thank you

Scottie · #**160** 01-25-2007, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ylwjacket

Er

At least Scottie throws stones from another country. I don't agree with some (OK most, when it come sot politics) of the stuff she says, but she's not having it both ways.

One thing to remember Scottie - no one appointed us captain. It was thrust upon us when we were attacked, by terrorists, who wish to acquire WMD to do us even more harm. Prior to 9/11, there was actually a trend towards isolationism in this country - you leave us alone, we'll leave you alone. It all changed that day.

.

One thing to remember ylwjacket your country in not Captain.

they just think they are.

Listen what's the problem here anyone can have a go at the UK/Scotland I'd more than likely agree with you. Just because I voice a opinion about America does not mean I hate Americans

You guys need to lighten up a bit and stop taking yourselves and country so serious.

Just because I am a Scot/UK citizen does not mean I think our Country is great I would openly admit it's faults. I have no time for our politicians not a decent one among the lot of them.

I am not proud our country went to war in Iraq taken there by Tony Blair

I am proud to be a Scot (first) British (second) not because of what my country does today but because of my heritage we are a proud race that is the MacGregor Clan.

'S Rioghal Mo Dhream
(Royal is my Race)

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