The War - Page 14

crosvs · #**131** 01-23-2007, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Being that your dad is a history professor, I'm sure you know that.

Eric, I was going to ask whether YOU are a professor. My Dad -- born in Washington, raised in LA -- is 100% American, and his family has been for many generations. He has a Ph.D. in cultural geography from UMich, and like most PhD's, his very education necessitated his learning the fine art of "reading behind the news," and learning how to filter the "true" news from the "propaganda news," if you will.

Anyway, your reasoning sounds almost verbatim to what he tries to teach me. For a guy who's never been very politically inclined, I've definitely tried to learn more about the state of affairs in recent years, especially since now that I'm in law school, I rather feel it's my duty to better educate myself with politics.

Anyway, I'm finding much of this discussion fascinating. That I happen to be 50% Persian obviously increases my interest too, of course. Thank you.

(BTW: I can contribute SOMETHING I have at least SOME knowledge on: as far as i know, Iran, at least, was an AWESOME country until the 20th century when its government started to fall to the Islamic regime, most of which, to my knowledge, was propagated by the US, correct me if I'm wrong. As for Iraq, I'm not sure. But I know this: notwithstanding political views, none can here deny the tragic loss of history that has been suffered during this "war" -- Iraq had some of the world's most ancient building, temples, etc. If we're not careful, we'll not only lose a significant number of PRESENT life, but a huge piece of our HISTORY as well.

)

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Master_Debator · #**132** 01-23-2007, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosvs

Eric, I was going to ask whether YOU are a professor. My Dad -- born in Washington, raised in LA -- is 100% American, and his family has been for many generations. He has a Ph.D. in cultural geography from UMich, and like most PhD's, his very education necessitated his learning the fine art of "reading behind the news," and learning how to filter the "true" news from the "propaganda news," if you will.

Anyway, your reasoning sounds almost verbatim to what he tries to teach me. For a guy who's never been very politically inclined, I've definitely tried to learn more about the state of affairs in recent years, especially since now that I'm in law school, I rather feel it's my duty to better educate myself with politics.

Anyway, I'm finding much of this discussion fascinating. That I happen to be 50% Persian obviously increases my interest too, of course. Thank you.

(BTW: I can contribute SOMETHING I have at least SOME knowledge on: as far as i know, Iran, at least, was an AWESOME country until the 20th century when its government started to fall to the Islamic regime, most of which, to my knowledge, was propagated by the US, correct me if I'm wrong. As for Iraq, I'm not sure. But I know this: notwithstanding political views, none can here deny the tragic loss of history that has been suffered during this "war" -- Iraq had some of the world's most ancient building, temples, etc. If we're not careful, we'll not only lose a significant number of PRESENT life, but a huge piece of our HISTORY as well.

)

Very well said. Iran was an awesome country. I am not Persian, I am armenian but my family has lived in teheran since the genocide.

Much of the regime was propagated by the US. But the US and the British had their hands deep in Irans pockets well before the revolution.

What happened in Iran will happen in Iraq. There are rumours about a bill that Ms. Rice hopes to pass for oil drilling rights in Iraq which would allow foreign oil companies (i.e US companies) to drill in Iraq for the next 20 years.

For those who think the war in Iraq is for democracy think again. History has a way of repeating itself.

From WIKI:

During World War II, Britain and the USSR invaded Iran from August 25 to September 17, 1941, to stop an Axis-supported coup and secure Iran's petroleum infrastructure. The Allies forced the Shah to abdicate in favor of his son, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, whom they hoped would be more supportive. In 1951, an eccentric pro-democratic nationalist, Dr. Mohammed Mossadegh rose to prominence in Iran and was elected Prime Minister. As Prime Minister, Mossadegh alarmed the West by his nationalization of Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (later British Petroleum, BP) that had controlled the country's oil reserves. In response, Britain immediately embargoed Iran. Soon after, members of the British Intelligence Service invited the United States to join them in covertly overthrowing the democratically-elected Mossadegh. Initially, United States President Harry S. Truman refused, but after Dwight D. Eisenhower was elected the British proposed the plan again. After convincing Eisenhower that Mossadegh was sympathetic to communism (even though he was an avowed anti-communist), the United States agreed to assist Britain in Operation Ajax. President Eisenhower authorized the CIA to take the lead in the operation of overthrowing Mossadegh and supporting a US-friendly monarch.

Mohammad Reza Pahlavi overthrown in the 1979 Iranian revolution. Farah Pahlavi former Empress of Iran

Dr. Mohammad Mossadegh, founder of Iran's first democratic government, overthrown in a CIA-backed coup in 1953

The CIA faced many setbacks, but the covert operation soon went into full swing, conducted from the US Embassy in Tehran under the leadership of Kermit Roosevelt, Jr. Agents were hired to facilitate violence; and, as a result, protests broke out across the nation. Anti- and pro-monarchy protestors violently clashed in the streets, leaving almost three hundred dead. The operation was successful in triggering a coup, and within days, pro-Shah tanks stormed the capital and bombarded the Prime Minister's residence. Mossadegh surrendered, and was arrested on 19 August 1953. He was tried for treason, and sentenced to three years in prison.

Eric5273 · #**133** 01-23-2007, 04:19 PM

This is why communists and socialists have always been enemies of our government. It has nothing to do with them not being democratic, or with their human rights records or how they treat their people. It has to do with the fact that they want to nationalize major industry which means American corporations can no longer exploint the population of that country or their resources for profit.

If you look at the State Department's list of state sponsors of terror, you will find that almost every country on the list is a socialist country. Furthermore, if you look at the list over the years, you will find that countries typically were added to the list shortly after nationalizing major industry, and countries have typically been removed from the list after privatizing major industry that was previously nationalized or agreeing to allow in foreign investment.

Notice how Venezuela has now been added to the list shortly after nationalizing major industry. Also notice how Libya was recently removed from the list after agreeing to allow in foreign oil companies to their state run oil industry.

While they often talk about "evil" countries such as Syria, Iran, North Korea, etc., and they make it sound like the issues they have with such countries have to do with issues such as WMDs, democracy, and human rights, the reality is that it all has to do with economics. I would bet that whatever negotiations they have going on with Iran and with North Korea, they have absolutely nothing to do with nuclear weapons and have everything to do with economics. If an agreement is reached, they will then announce it in the context of that they came to an agreement regarding the nuclear weapons, but there will be much more to it than that.

For example, we now know that the State Department negotations with the Taliban in the summer of 2001 had very little to do with terrorism and turning over Osama bin Laden, and had more to do with negotiations to build an oil pipeline through Afghanistan. If the Taliban had agreed to their terms, they would still be in power.

Wagner · #**134** 01-23-2007, 04:21 PM

Isn't China our biggest trade partner?

Master_Debator · #**135** 01-23-2007, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric5273

This is why communists and socialists have always been enemies of our government. It has nothing to do with them not being democratic, or with their human rights records or how they treat their people. It has to do with the fact that they want to nationalize major industry which means American corporations can no longer exploint the population of that country or their resources for profit.

If you look at the State Department's list of state sponsors of terror, you will find that almost every country on the list is a socialist country. Furthermore, if you look at the list over the years, you will find that countries typically were added to the list shortly after nationalizing major industry, and countries have typically been removed from the list after privatizing major industry that was previously nationalized or agreeing to allow in foreign investment.

Notice how Venezuela has now been added to the list shortly after nationalizing major industry. Also notice how Libya was recently removed from the list after agreeing to allow in foreign oil companies to their state run oil industry.

While they often talk about "evil" countries such as Syria, Iran, North Korea, etc., and they make it sound like the issues they have with such countries have to do with issues such as WMDs, democracy, and human rights, the reality is that it all has to do with economics. I would bet that whatever negotiations they have going on with Iran and with North Korea, they have absolutely nothing to do with nuclear weapons and have everything to do with economics. If an agreement is reached, they will then announce it in the context of that they came to an agreement regarding the nuclear weapons, but there will be much more to it than that.

For example, we now know that the State Department negotations with the Taliban in the summer of 2001 had very little to do with terrorism and turning over Osama bin Laden, and had more to do with negotiations to build an oil pipeline through Afghanistan. If the Taliban had agreed to their terms, they would still be in power.

There is always more to the story then meets the eye. When the top secret CIA docs become public in 50 odd years from now only then will we know the rest of this story.

Eric5273 · #**136** 01-23-2007, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WagnerX5

Isn't China our biggest trade partner?

Yes. Indeed it was finally figured out that they were too big to bully around and that they would not change to capitalism, so Nixon went over there and normalized relations after 30 years of ignoring them.

They only bully the little countries that they know they can kick around.

xxx · #**137** 01-24-2007, 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master_Debator

Very well said. Iran was an awesome country. I am not Persian, I am armenian but my family has lived in teheran since the genocide.

Much of the regime was propagated by the US. But the US and the British had their hands deep in Irans pockets well before the revolution.

What happened in Iran will happen in Iraq. There are rumours about a bill that Ms. Rice hopes to pass for oil drilling rights in Iraq which would allow foreign oil companies (i.e US companies) to drill in Iraq for the next 20 years.

For those who think the war in Iraq is for democracy think again. History has a way of repeating itself.

From WIKI:

During World War II, Britain and the USSR invaded Iran from August 25 to September 17, 1941, to stop an Axis-supported coup and secure Iran's petroleum infrastructure. The Allies forced the Shah to abdicate in favor of his son, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, whom they hoped would be more supportive. In 1951, an eccentric pro-democratic nationalist, Dr. Mohammed Mossadegh rose to prominence in Iran and was elected Prime Minister. As Prime Minister, Mossadegh alarmed the West by his nationalization of Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (later British Petroleum, BP) that had controlled the country's oil reserves. In response, Britain immediately embargoed Iran. Soon after, members of the British Intelligence Service invited the United States to join them in covertly overthrowing the democratically-elected Mossadegh. Initially, United States President Harry S. Truman refused, but after Dwight D. Eisenhower was elected the British proposed the plan again. After convincing Eisenhower that Mossadegh was sympathetic to communism (even though he was an avowed anti-communist), the United States agreed to assist Britain in Operation Ajax. President Eisenhower authorized the CIA to take the lead in the operation of overthrowing Mossadegh and supporting a US-friendly monarch.

Mohammad Reza Pahlavi overthrown in the 1979 Iranian revolution. Farah Pahlavi former Empress of Iran

Dr. Mohammad Mossadegh, founder of Iran's first democratic government, overthrown in a CIA-backed coup in 1953

The CIA faced many setbacks, but the covert operation soon went into full swing, conducted from the US Embassy in Tehran under the leadership of Kermit Roosevelt, Jr. Agents were hired to facilitate violence; and, as a result, protests broke out across the nation. Anti- and pro-monarchy protestors violently clashed in the streets, leaving almost three hundred dead. The operation was successful in triggering a coup, and within days, pro-Shah tanks stormed the capital and bombarded the Prime Minister's residence. Mossadegh surrendered, and was arrested on 19 August 1953. He was tried for treason, and sentenced to three years in prison.

who are you??????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????

who ever you think you are, your Persian at heart.

English is my 3rd language but im sure Armenian is spelled with a capital AAAAAAAAAAAA......

Wagner · #**138** 01-24-2007, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master_Debator

There is always more to the story then meets the eye. When the top secret CIA docs become public in 50 odd years from now only then will we know the rest of this story.

Those will get "lost".

Scottie · #**139** 01-24-2007, 07:30 AM

what alot of bullshit in this thread but not all but mostly 14 pages of one trying to out do the other.

Is it a how many words you can type in reponse to anothers post.?? contest.

Anyway just lets cut to the chase.

America got it wrong "as usual" us his sheep the UK didn't do any better

we should withdraw from Iraq now

we should have never gone there in the first place.

Who says it's up to America to save the world from WMD of terrorist who made them captain??

Eric5273 · #**140** 01-24-2007, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WagnerX5

Those will get "lost".

You'd actually be surprised how much stuff is never "lost". I was shocked at the kind of stuff they released after the JFK Act in the 1990s. When I tell some people about it, they don't believe me or think it is some kind of big conspiracy theory, but I've seen the documents with my own eyes (a family member likes to make frequent trips to the national archives and make use of FOIA).

Stuff on subjects like MK-ULTRA, the Cuban Missle Crisis, JFK Assassination, Vietnam War, MLK Assassination, etc. Lots of information has become public record over the last 15 years. Unfortunately the media ignores this stuff for the most part, and so most people are unaware.

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