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  #401  
Old 12-17-2020, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by crystalworks View Post
Giving those employees money directly (in many cases more than their employment would pay), negates that problem. Actually, with the limits they put on the checks I'd venture that under almost all circumstances people would have more money to survive on than under their normal employment.
Giving the business the money means the employees will also get the money. However, this also means their jobs won't become obsolete, their daily routines aren't disrupted, they are not just staying home, umemployeed because the company they work for has filed for bankruptcy due to drastically reduced business in 2020.

Can you imagine what a paying job does to a person's confidence? Especially if he's got 3 kids to feed and a mortgage to pay?

It's easy to keep feeding a homeless, but much harder to convince him to work for his keep.

Your way will breed more homeless, where as the PPP program helps to keep these people employeed.

Big difference.

Even after you discount the possible waste and corruption.
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  #402  
Old 12-17-2020, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Maruzo View Post
It's actually more about keeping the massive amounts of small and medium businesses alive so the economy won't crumble.
If the majority of Americans have money in their pockets, usually more than they would have before the pandemic, the economy would not crumble. Spending would go up. Renters would not be hurt because tenants could pay. There are so many positives. You're not thinking this through.

Businesses open and close everyday. Under all circumstances. BTW, if I was a business owner (retail, restaurant, etc) in an industry that was affected by the lockdowns. I would have closed immediately, moved all inventory to storage, broke my lease, filed business closure with the city. I wouldn't have borrowed a dime from the PPP or anyone and would live off of my savings (and/or get another job). Reopen (if it made sense financially) after the pandemic was under control.

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Originally Posted by Maruzo View Post
Your way will breed more homeless, where as the PPP program helps to keep these people employeed.
I disagree. And I'm a conservative when it comes to spending.

Wait until the rent moratorium ends, then we'll see how much the PPP has contributed to the homeless population and the costs to cities to deal with it.

Edit: sorry eviction moratorium, not rent.
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Last edited by crystalworks; 12-17-2020 at 02:05 PM.
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  #403  
Old 12-17-2020, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by crystalworks View Post
If the majority of Americans have money in their pockets, usually more than they would have before the pandemic, the economy would not crumble. Spending would go up. Renters would not be hurt because tenants could pay. There are so many positives. You're not thinking this through.

Businesses open and close everyday. Under all circumstances. BTW, if I was a business owner (retail, restaurant, etc) in an industry that was affected by the lockdowns. I would have closed immediately, moved all inventory to storage, broke my lease, filed business closure with the city. I wouldn't have borrowed a dime from the PPP or anyone and would live off of my savings (and/or get another job). Reopen (if it made sense financially) after the pandemic was under control.



I disagree. And I'm a conservative when it comes to spending.

Wait until the rent moratorium ends, then we'll see how much the PPP has contributed to the homeless population and the costs to cities to deal with it.
You forgot to mention that many of these people will not have a job to go back to while they continue to receive government handouts.

Once the money dries up, and it will quickly dry up, they will not have a job to go back to.

Businesses does open and close everyday.

But the economy is driven by these businesses, not the people.

Businesses keep people employeed.

And economy will crumple without the support of massive number of businesses proping it up.

Your way is actually more socialist in thinking, and mine more Republican.

What??
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Old 12-17-2020, 02:11 PM
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A business that employees 15 people also supports partly or in full 15 families.

If it crumples. Those same 15 families will crumple as well.

If none of the business gets help from government, then the chances of these 15 families finding another job is going to be much less, since there are now even fewer job opportunities.

That will ultimately mean massive more homeless or below poverty line population as a result.
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  #405  
Old 12-17-2020, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Maruzo View Post
You forgot to mention that many of these people will not have a job to go back to while they continue to receive government handouts.

Once the money dries up, and it will quickly dry up, they will not have a job to go back to.

Businesses does open and close everyday.

But the economy is driven by these businesses, not the people.

Businesses keep people employeed.

And economy will crumple without the support of massive number of businesses proping it up.

Your way is actually more socialist in thinking, and mine more Republican.

What??
That irony was not lost on me. I chuckled a bit.

Other businesses will open up in place of those that close. I agree employees will not have the same jobs to come back to in many cases.

Some businesses are hiring more than ever, Wal-Mart, Amazon, etc. Online retailers and such. In fact, I think those companies are the larger threat to businesses than anything else.
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  #406  
Old 12-17-2020, 02:22 PM
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That irony was not lost on me. I chuckled a bit.

Other businesses will open up in place of those that close. I agree employees will not have the same jobs to come back to in many cases.

Some businesses are hiring more than ever, Wal-Mart, Amazon, etc. Online retailers and such. In fact, I think those companies are the larger threat to businesses than anything else.
True. Changes in the business landscape comes due to necessity. The prosperity of these online business actually means much less good jobs for the people.

They end up getting lousy warehousing jobs as a result. Long hours, easily replaceble because it requires much less specific skill sets.

Since the software and the algorithms took care of most of the sales rep's jobs, along with a few other jobs that people will no longer be able to find.

Many people will be without jobs without PPP helping to keep their companies afloat. That is pretty plain to see.

This pandemic is actually fast tracking the replacement and removal of many traditional jobs that people holds because the online business is taking them away.
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  #407  
Old 12-17-2020, 07:13 PM
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He's wanted that when Congress was bickering back and forth and wouldn't even send anything to his desk for the last 6 months. Now the Republicans and Dems know they HAVE to work together. I wouldn't doubt he vetos it out of spite. And in this case I can't say I blame him.

These packages are a huge fail anyway. Would have been much better (and cheaper) to send all w-2 filers checks every month instead of the programs and bureaucracy they added. Rent would get paid (no need for eviction moratorium), food could still be purchased, etc. I'm not for handing money out to people generally, but I'd much rather it be handed to the public tax-payers and put back into the economy than used as cheap capitol for large, or successful businesses, squandered or lost in the system, or otherwise wasted.

The only thing in the packages that might be useful is the money to the states for vaccinations and PPE expenditures. All the paycheck protection programs were garbage as was the additional unemployment. Just give that money directly to tax payers.
The house passed the Care act in March I believe it was. The Senate refused to take it to the floor or negotiate with the House.
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  #408  
Old 12-17-2020, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Maruzo View Post
True. Changes in the business landscape comes due to necessity. The prosperity of these online business actually means much less good jobs for the people.

They end up getting lousy warehousing jobs as a result. Long hours, easily replaceble because it requires much less specific skill sets.

Since the software and the algorithms took care of most of the sales rep's jobs, along with a few other jobs that people will no longer be able to find.

Many people will be without jobs without PPP helping to keep their companies afloat. That is pretty plain to see.

This pandemic is actually fast tracking the replacement and removal of many traditional jobs that people holds because the online business is taking them away.
A free jobs training program is needed to gain new skills so the unemployed or those living at the poverty level will be qualified for higher paying jobs. A focus on improving the infrastructure such as roads and bridges would also be beneficial for higher paying job creation. With COVID 19 infections so high funding for small business would be better when the curve has been on the downturn for a couple of weeks. Restrictions are going to get tighter as the spikes continues to go higher so customer base may not be enough to make a profit.

Online businesses are going to dramatically increase and delivery features of so many small and even large businesses will not likely go away. Unless it is necessary business owners will not want to invest in brick and mortar locations. The result will be the need for less employees. That will negatively impact low paying jobs and a fair number of those of middle management.
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  #409  
Old 12-17-2020, 11:28 PM
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All the paycheck protection programs were garbage as was the additional unemployment. Just give that money directly to tax payers.
I have to disagree with you. I believe that the ideal approach would to extend the financial benefits to those people who are still unemployed and not just hand out $600 to everyone under a certain income level, regardless of whether or not they are employed. Most folks who are employed do not truly need the financial assistance at taxpayers expense, whereas those who are unemployed and will have their benefits cut off towards the end of this year, really do need the extension of the funds.

On a related topic, our local food bank has just announced a 3 for 1 match of any dollar donations made to our local Community Food Bank, by the Dec. 31st 2020. I have already made a couple of donations to them this year and will most likely do so again before the end of the year. I am just waiting to see what the presumed final bill will include that is expected to be finalized in Congress before Christmas and what it may include towards this very important charitable cause. As far as I am concerned, making sure that Americans have enough food to survive is far more of basic necessity than many other charities right now, especially since so many people are still out of work and cannot afford the basic necessities of life.

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  #410  
Old 12-18-2020, 01:35 AM
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Can someone please explain why Joel Osteen’s Houston megachurch received $4.4 million in PPP funds??? I don't get it.
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