What's the matter with Donald Trump.

[crystalworks]

Originally Posted by Maruzo

I don't know how you talk about the pandemic without defining the role Trump plays in it.

I can certainly separate him or basically anything he says about the virus from my actual approach to dealing with this infection. Since most of what he said are pure garbage.

Good, smart move. It is possible for those who don't agree with his covid policies to protect themselves. And I agree, most of what he says on the subject is garbage.

Originally Posted by Maruzo

But I don't think the many supporters who chant his name whenever he tweets can separate the truth from his many ill-advised and useless alternative solution to the virus, including but not limited to: "wishing it would just go away, no more deadly than your average flu, do less testing, only pute on mask if you feel like it, shooting chlorine into your arm, and my personal favorite, hydroxycloroquine."

That's their business. If they want to shoulder the lion's share of hospitalizations and death statistics, that's their prerogative. But I am also willing to admit to myself that most of those people are not going to get infected and are enjoying a more normal life than myself or family are at the moment. And for taking that risk, they are probably suffering less mental ups and downs as we are. Does that make me a little jealous, yeah. Yeah it does. But my feelings aren't their problems or their fault.

Originally Posted by Maruzo

Focusing on the biggest problem is better than focusing on too many targets at the same time and letting your goal get wahsed out as a result.

Do I like Pelosi or Schumer? I have no opinion on them. They are not the leader of this country and their influence, good or bad, isn't going to change this country in a republican led senate with a republican in charge.

So it's not a matter of spreading the blame for me. It's admitting that we have a bad president and we need to get rid of him and bring in an alternative.

We disagree on the "biggest" problem. The biggest problem, as I see it, is the divide amongst both the citizens and the politicians in this country. Trump is not the leader of the US, though he may be the face of it disappointingly.

But, going with your opinion of him as a bad president (spoiler alert: so far he is), focusing on his positions during covid is not the way to gain Biden votes. You are singing a chorus in the echo chamber to those who were already going to vote for Biden. Focus on things that he might have more impact on. As mentioned, covid was always going to do what virus' do. But the wealth gap continues to grow, government spending continues (by both parties), monopolies continue to be a problem, campaign reform has not happened, etc. Those are issues that more people can relate to and care about. And those are what some of the fence sitters might have their vote determined by.

And, the above is all opinion of course. I understand Happy's frustration with the politics talk on an auto forum... as it most certainly is a waste of time. Hell, only a small handful of us even look at these threads. But time is something I have to waste being at home so much now. When I get tired of it I unsub to the threads for a time and come back later. At the end of the day, we are all Americans, and are trying to create our own little slice of heaven here on earth. The sooner we all realize that, the better, and the quicker things will change for majority citizens and not just the minorities on the ends of the spectrum.

[Maruzo]

Originally Posted by crystalworks

Good, smart move. It is possible for those who don't agree with his covid policies to protect themselves. And I agree, most of what he says on the subject is garbage.



That's their business. If they want to shoulder the lion's share of hospitalizations and death statistics, that's their prerogative. But I am also willing to admit to myself that most of those people are not going to get infected and are enjoying a more normal life than myself or family are at the moment. And for taking that risk, they are probably suffering less mental ups and downs as we are. Does that make me a little jealous, yeah. Yeah it does. But my feelings aren't their problems or their fault.



We disagree on the "biggest" problem. The biggest problem, as I see it, is the divide amongst both the citizens and the politicians in this country. Trump is not the leader of the US, though he may be the face of it disappointingly.

But, going with your opinion of him as a bad president (spoiler alert: so far he is), focusing on his positions during covid is not the way to gain Biden votes. You are singing a chorus in the echo chamber to those who were already going to vote for Biden. Focus on things that he might have more impact on. As mentioned, covid was always going to do what virus' do. But the wealth gap continues to grow, government spending continues (by both parties), monopolies continue to be a problem, campaign reform has not happened, etc. Those are issues that more people can relate to and care about. And those are what some of the fence sitters might have their vote determined by.

And, the above is all opinion of course. I understand Happy's frustration with the politics talk on an auto forum... as it most certainly is a waste of time. Hell, only a small handful of us even look at these threads. But time is something I have to waste being at home so much now. When I get tired of it I unsub to the threads for a time and come back later. At the end of the day, we are all Americans, and are trying to create our own little slice of heaven here on earth. The sooner we all realize that, the better, and the quicker things will change for majority citizens and not just the minorities on the ends of the spectrum.

Well said and clear headed as always, crystal. The pandemic is just the catalyst that brings out all the hidden problems in this country.

The wealth divide as you've mentioned, the racial tensions between the white and black, police brutality and the underlying conditions that allow them to continue executing racial profiling as means of policing their streets, and many others, such as the rapidly increasing homeless that are occupying our streets and parks, the increasing impoverished masses, white supremacy, domestic terrorism, and on and on.

The many demonstrations this year were primarily the result of racial inequality. The rioting that followed is a byproduct of the demonstrations. It is the hopeless cries of the impoverished who feels doomed in this country that showcased less and less of the land of the freedom and opportunities, and more and more of the us vs them mentality, protectionism at all cost.

But the question is, where are you protecting yourselves from? We're all living in this very same country. Why are we so divisive within our own country?

I'm always hopeful that we'll turn around the many issues we've faced this year and continue on stronger than ever.

But I'm not sure where to base this confidence on at the moment.

[bcredliner]

Originally Posted by crystalworks

I certainly am not for the hyper or draconian reaction that some countries took. Could PPE have been more available? Yes. Should our health care system be much more capable. Uh huh. Could bars and dine-in restaurants have been closed sooner, sure. They should probably still be closed. Could face coverings have been mandated in businesses sooner. Yep. Schools should be closed. But I don't know what kind of realistic approach could have been taken by the American government, under anyone's leadership you guys are looking for that would have greatly changed the numbers. If we are blaming the government, fine, don't focus on Trump. As Happy pointed out pelosi screwed the pooch too, in more instances than one. Congress' constant bickering and inaction is equally to blame.

We have the ability to protect ourselves regardless of other's actions. My family went through an initial shelter in place phase out of shock and concern as well. And was upset by people not wearing face coverings. But we've all gotten over that and are now taking more reasonable precautions. Home schooling our daughter, wear a mask when in any business, avoid crowds (especially those prone to have non mask wearers), no eating out, etc. The only real big impact is the home schooling. Fortunately masks in businesses are mandated here.

180,000 deaths (190 now?) sounds like a huge number. And it is, depending on context. But we have no idea what percentage of those are covid deaths (healthy person dying after contacting covid), covid contributed deaths (underlying conditions), or misdiagnosed deaths. Our family has personally had to deal with a covid misdiagnosis.

I am NOT a Trump supporter, but the continued outrage from the left has gotten worse than the outrage from the right when Obama was in office. Especially over covid, when both parties are to blame. There was an America before Trump and there will be one after Trump. If the executive branch is failing us, the legislative, and judicial are supposed to course correct. If you are unhappy with current govt actions, vote all the incumbents out.

BTW, thank you for your service Happy (and all servicemen/women who frequent the forums). And I hope your family has recovered from their covid experiences.

Considering what other countries and some areas in our country that implemented the recommended guidelines and their resulting success, it seems clear that we would have COVID-19 under control by now if we had had a Federal mandate to follow the guidelines across the country. I think a Federal mandate is still necessary and it should include severe enough penalties to act as an effective deterrent for those that choose not to cooperate for whatever reason.

I don't agree that those having underlining conditions should be eliminated from the Covid-19 death count. It doesn't mean they were already terminal. It means they are more likely to die if infected. For example, they could have diabetes or cancer and be doing fine. They might have lived another 30 years with either disease. They get Covid-19 and die. Why isn't the cause of death the virus?

The leaders of a country, just as in a business, are responsible for the actions taken by those they manage. They don't get to shift the blame to anyone else. It doesn't matter what Pelosi or anyone else does. In this cause, Trump was directly involved in the mismanagement. It wasn't the fault of anyone else in his administration though they violated their oath of office by not speaking up. He personally downplayed the recommendations of the scientists and still is. He puts his support for defiance of the guidelines on display at televised rallies for all to see. At best that is dereliction of duty, a violation of his oath of office. In a business, certainly a corporation, he would have been fired long ago.

I agree that the House, Senate and President don't work together. That is also part of the job of a President to see that they do.

It requires a two thirds vote by House and Senate to override a veto by the President. Historically that has happened less than ten percent of the time. As it is now that will never happen an either side of the isle. That leaves no possibility of a course correction. And since most votes are party line driven, voting out incumbents isn't going to become a priority. I think term limits should be applied to the house and senate but I can't see those in office in favor of doing so, even suggesting consideration.

IMO, the best we can hope for is that at some point the House and Senate have a significant majority of the same party as the president. Bi-partisan support is at least two terms away and only with forced mending of the major fences separating the parties. Right now they are calling each other stupid, crazy or worse. That only makes things worse. Those are fighting words and working very well.

Less than 45% of eligible Americans vote. Perhaps 1 or 2 here will decide voting is important. If another 10% start voting, or whatever critical mass is, major changes are very possible.

[Maruzo]

Originally Posted by bcredliner

Considering what other countries and some areas in our country that implemented the recommended guidelines and their resulting success, it seems clear that we would have COVID-19 under control by now if we had had a Federal mandate to follow the guidelines across the country. I think a Federal mandate is still necessary and it should include severe enough penalties to act as an effective deterrent for those that choose not to cooperate for whatever reason.

I don't agree that those having underlining conditions should be eliminated from the Covid-19 death count. It doesn't mean they were already terminal. It means they are more likely to die if infected. For example, they could have diabetes or cancer and be doing fine. They might have lived another 30 years with either disease. They get Covid-19 and die. Why isn't the cause of death the virus?

The leaders of a country, just as in a business, are responsible for the actions taken by those they manage. They don't get to shift the blame to anyone else. It doesn't matter what Pelosi or anyone else does. In this cause, Trump was directly involved in the mismanagement. It wasn't the fault of anyone else in his administration though they violated their oath of office by not speaking up. He personally downplayed the recommendations of the scientists and still is. He puts his support for defiance of the guidelines on display at televised rallies for all to see. At best that is dereliction of duty, a violation of his oath of office. In a business, certainly a corporation, he would have been fired long ago.

I agree that the House, Senate and President don't work together. That is also part of the job of a President to see that they do.

It requires a two thirds vote by House and Senate to override a veto by the President. Historically that has happened less than ten percent of the time. As it is now that will never happen an either side of the isle. That leaves no possibility of a course correction. And since most votes are party line driven, voting out incumbents isn't going to become a priority. I think term limits should be applied to the house and senate but I can't see those in office in favor of doing so, even suggesting consideration.

IMO, the best we can hope for is that at some point the House and Senate have a significant majority of the same party as the president. Bi-partisan support is at least two terms away and only with forced mending of the major fences separating the parties. Right now they are calling each other stupid, crazy or worse. That only makes things worse. Those are fighting words and working very well.

Less than 45% of eligible Americans vote. Perhaps 1 or 2 here will decide voting is important. If another 10% start voting, or whatever critical mass is, major changes are very possible.

I enjoy the extraordinary amounts of freedom in this country. But I'm also aware sometimes you just got to take one for the team.

This saying originated here. It's said for a reason. Sometimes, you just have to delay a few of your personal freedoms temporarily for the greater good of your fellow citizens.

Perhaps it really is as simple as that. Take one for the team and follow the mandates, or suffer the consequences, like BC said.

Like I pointed out before, our seat belt campaign were very successful because we combined uniform messaging across the board, and penalized (slightly) those who refused to put it on.

Following the mandate should not be any more different than the seat belt campaigns. They are both designed to save lives.

As for the clogged up legislative branch of our government, perhaps a time will come when enough public voices push through to demand real change of our antiquated house and senate. Term limit sounds better and better each day.

[Happy]

Thank you Crystal for the acknowledgement. Also, well said!

[Happy]

Gee-Whiz BC! How I wish our government was functioning correctly right now!

[bcredliner]

I agree the pandemic has been one of the catalysts. The pandemic guidelines got many folks fired up about infringing on their freedom and being quarantined or out of work caused widespread anger and frustration.

As we all know racial injustice has been present since are beginnings. There has been an ebb and flow of the magnitude, visibility and intensity but it was much broader and worse than today. I think black lives matter demonstrations and police brutality against black Americans poked the racial injustice bear this time.

I think the worldwide reach of social media, cell phone cameras and videos are an important catalyst. Racial issues, demonstrations, looting, police violence etc. are in our faces like never before. The magnitude of the problems are more visible. It wasn't long ago that our source for information was limited to TV news, newspapers and magazines.

I think another important catalyst is our President. In many ways he sets the tone of what issues he thinks should be focused on and what behavior is appropriate by how he addresses those issues. He has exasperated divisiveness and made it in vogue to address these issues with more aggressive language and actions.

Back to the pandemic. We can control the pandemic. Wear a mask, social distance, avoid crowds and wash your hands even if it is not mandated. It's not for you but for others.

[Maruzo]

BC, your comments and Crystals are the considerate and well-thought voices we desperately need in this abnormal and disastrous year.

[Happy]

Pelosi visited Chinatown in Cal. in February. It was because business was down. People were staying away because they thought that since COVID-19 originated in China they would be infected if they went there. Her visit was before Cal. became a hot spot. Adhering to the guidelines was not necessary. The visit was strictly about Chinatown not about what should be done in any other area. She did not say everything was fine in America. She said everything is fine in Chinatown. Totally different. The local news stories were picked up and used to make the visit look like this was her position on COVID-19 nationwide. Her visit was not about the nation. It was only about Chinatown, and, again, only at that particular time.

You are one of those men who have an excuse for everything.

Regardless, even accepting your misuse and misinterpretation of the clip as accurate, it still doesn't matter what she did or said. She is not the one in charge. The inappropriate actions of one person does not mean the inappropriate actions of another are OK or justified.

Obviously you know nothing about our government and do not realize the power The speaker of the house has. There is a scenario at this moment where the speaker could become president. Go educate yourself! How are you affiliated with Harvard again?

COVID-19 is happening on Trump’s watch. The buck stops with him regardless of what anyone else says or does. The virus isn't his fault but anything that the Federal government does, right or wrong is his cross to bear. He is the current President. He is in charge.

Actually there are multiple channels involved with defending the nation against a pandemic. Go educate yourself. Again how are you affiliated with Harvard again?

I have no idea why you brought in religion as justification for not voting. I contend that if you want anything changed as to how this nation functions then register to vote and vote in all elections--county, city, state and federal. Applying the "Golden rule" how do you justify calling anyone a hypocrite?

Because never, is there an option on a ballot for me to vote for the children of my great country, United States of America to learn the values and teachings of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

However, as not to pass judgment against others behaviors or beliefs, there are certain things they are trying to teach in the school that I certainly do not want my children to learn about.

Washington DC is full of hypocrites.

[bcredliner]

Originally Posted by Happy

You are one of those men who have an excuse for everything.



Obviously you know nothing about our government and do not realize the power The speaker of the house has. There is a scenario at this moment where the speaker could become president. Go educate yourself! How are you affiliated with Harvard again?



Actually there are multiple channels involved with defending the nation against a pandemic. Go educate yourself. Again how are you affiliated with Harvard again?



Because never, is there an option on a ballot for me to vote for the children of my great country, United States of America to learn the values and teachings of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

However, as not to pass judgment against others behaviors or beliefs, there are certain things they are trying to teach in the school that I certainly do not want my children to learn about.

Washington DC is full of hypocrites.

Why do you think insults are appropriate? Or, are you trying to be inappropriate?

Not posting excuses. My most recent response was directly from the link you provided that explained the reason Pelosi was there and what she said. I watched and read what you posted and explained why I felt your interpretation was flawed.

Once again, it doesn't matter what Pelosi says or does in this instance. The President is in charge. He is responsible for the actions of his administration. Yes, there is a line of succession that the speaker of the house could become President. If that were to happen the buck would stop with her the day she is sworn in.

What channels defending against a pandemic are you referencing?