Home Forums Articles How To's FAQ Register
Go Back   Xoutpost.com > Off-topic > The Lounge
Bimmer Tool Rental
User Name
Password
Member List Premier Membership Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Xoutpost server transfer and maintenance is occurring....
Xoutpost is currently undergoing a planned server migration.... stay tuned for new developments.... sincerely, the management


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #121  
Old 01-12-2013, 03:28 PM
noncom23's Avatar
Premier Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Big D
Posts: 6,521
noncom23 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCL View Post
Not sure why it matters, but no. Several family members living in separate households do. They hunt deer, elk, moose, etc. Not people.

If we are talking gun control, shouldn't we look at gun violence? If you want to look at all violence you are going to have to consider a lot more causal factors, you can't just attribute it to guns. Especially when the stats are compiled so differently. Look at my comments in this thread, above, on what gets included in the 'violent crime' category in different countries.
So you are saying all the assaults, robberies, sexual violence
happened without guns? Forget the fact that you backed up the statement that
the bureau didn't even exist?

JCL, you can twist this any way you want. Look at Europe. I did.
Clearly their gun violence is higer than the US.

Do some real research for once. Or just admit you are against guns and get it
overwith. We won't blame you. Your Socialist stance is fine.

But we have a Constitution here in the US. It is still the law of the land,
despite the disdain of many. The Second Amendment stands. Sorry
you disagree. Your argument for a Modern Society is just another
baseless attempt to take away OUR rights. We fought for these rights
once, and thats why we have weapons now.
__________________
Mike F
Current: 2017 Grand Cherokee HEMI
2017 Kawasaki ZX-14r
2017 Harley RG Ultra
2017 Harley Fatboy S
Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links

  #122  
Old 01-12-2013, 03:50 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 215
tynashracing is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCL View Post
Noncom23:

I wasn't going to respond, since we discussed the reduction in gun violence in other countries earlier in this thread. But tynashracing, in another thread, felt slighted. So here it is.

I realize you didn't write this, that it is a clip from a blog.

Still, there doesn't actually appear to be an Australian Bureau of Criminology. It appears to have been made up by someone hoping that nobody would check. In fact, gun violence in Australia is down significantly since gun controls were brought in. The story, plus lots of graphs, data, links, and sources, at this link:

cameronreilly.com | The Facts About Guns In Australia

Are you kidding me..."I felt slighted"???

I said "Oh BTW, it's a bit ironic that over in the Lounge...a post was made on the Gun Control thread by noncom23...NOT A FREAK'N WORD UTTERED BY YOU. Wow, someone actually shut you up...no great come back? I'm so disappointed JCL, I figured you would've had some kind of argument?"

Can you hear the sarcasm in my tone?

I didn't feel slighted. I felt good that someone actually shut you up!

You continue making up stuff that I didn't say JCL. This is becoming a habit of yours. NOT COOL.
__________________
2002 4.4 Sport
134k miles and counting
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old 01-12-2013, 04:11 PM
JCL's Avatar
JCL JCL is offline
Premier Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 11,853
JCL will become famous soon enoughJCL will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by noncom23 View Post
So you are saying all the assaults, robberies, sexual violence happened without guns? Forget the fact that you backed up the statement that the bureau didn't even exist?
I am saying focus on the statistics for violent acts that included firearms, and don't warp the numbers by including acts that didn't, at least in relation to a discussion about gun violence. We would be able to better determine correlations then. Not clear on your bureau comment. There is no bureau. There is an institute, though. Those just aren't their numbers.

Quote:
JCL, you can twist this any way you want. Look at Europe. I did.
Clearly their gun violence is higer than the US.
Disagree. I posted earlier in this thread on that exact point. I won't repeat it.

Quote:
Do some real research for once. Or just admit you are against guns and get it over with. We won't blame you. Your Socialist stance is fine.
I am against gun violence. Guns are inanimate objects, I don't hate them or love them. I don't think much of gun culture. Not sure why there is apparent shame or blame in any of that. Don't understand your reference to a socialism. You know nothing about my politics. Socialism is a long way off, though.

Quote:
But we have a Constitution here in the US. It is still the law of the land,
despite the disdain of many. The Second Amendment stands. Sorry
you disagree. Your argument for a Modern Society is just another
baseless attempt to take away OUR rights. We fought for these rights
once, and thats why we have weapons now.
You are entitled to your opinions. I don't know why you would ascribe disdain to your constitution to others here, maybe you don't mean me. The constitution talks about well-regulated in talking about the reasons for an armed society, so I don't personally see the conflict, but that is up to your country. I don't get a vote. But why is Modern Society capitalized?

I think if guns are going to be used to fight 'tyranny' then the challenge is that the oppression of society, the tyrants, are largely financial, not military. And shooting bankers doesn't sound like a solution to me.
__________________
2007 X3 3.0si, 6 MT, Premium, White

Retired:
2008 535i, 6 MT, M Sport, Premium, Space Grey
2003 X5 3.0 Steptronic, Premium, Titanium Silver

2002 325xi 5 MT, Steel Grey
2004 Z4 3.0 Premium, Sport, SMG, Maldives Blue
Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old 01-12-2013, 04:15 PM
JCL's Avatar
JCL JCL is offline
Premier Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 11,853
JCL will become famous soon enoughJCL will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by tynashracing View Post
Can you hear the sarcasm in my tone?
Yes. Apparently you can't hear it in mine.
__________________
2007 X3 3.0si, 6 MT, Premium, White

Retired:
2008 535i, 6 MT, M Sport, Premium, Space Grey
2003 X5 3.0 Steptronic, Premium, Titanium Silver

2002 325xi 5 MT, Steel Grey
2004 Z4 3.0 Premium, Sport, SMG, Maldives Blue
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old 01-12-2013, 04:26 PM
noncom23's Avatar
Premier Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Big D
Posts: 6,521
noncom23 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by noncom23 View Post
JCL

Do you own any guns, by the way?

First:


Australian Bureau of Statistics:

Australian Bureau of Statistics


4530.0 - Crime Victimisation, Australia, 2010-11




Next:

I don't really see an astoundng change here. Yes reported homicides
are down, but robbery is climbing.
Assaults are up horribly.



Australian Institute of Criminology - Home


Victims of violent crime statistics
Victims of violent crimes from 1996 to 2007 (number)

Homicid Assault Sexual assault Robbery Kidnapping

1996 354 114,156 14,542 16,372 478
1997 364 124,500 14,353 21,305 564
1998 334 130,903 14,689 23,801 707
1999 385 134,271 14,699 22,606 766
2000 362 138,708 16,406 23,336 695
2001 347 152,283 17,577 26,591 767
2002 366 159,548 18,718 20,989 706
2003 341 157,280 18,025 19,709 696
2004 302 156,849 19,171 16,513 768
2005 301 166,507 18,695 17,176 730
2006 322 172,441 19,555 17,375 725
2007 282 176,427 19,781 17,988 730

Assaults continue to represent the majority of recorded violent crimes. The overall trend since 1996 has been upward, with an increase of 55 percent between 1996 and 2007.
The trend in sexual assault has also followed a general increase. The highest numbers of victims of sexual assault and of assault were recorded in 2007.
There were 282 victims of homicide in 2007: a 12 percent decrease from 2006 and the lowest number recorded in the past 12 years.
Continuing the trend since 2004, robbery offences increased again in 2007, to 17,988.
The number of recorded kidnappings fluctuates from year to year. From 1996 to 2004, kidnappings registered a general increase, but the number of victims of kidnapping has remained relatively steady following a decline in 2005.
I guess I have to quote myself. JCL, do have your glasses?
Can you see the link that says Bureau of Statistics?
I can't see any further point in trying to educate you.
You are stuck with your views. At least read the post.
__________________
Mike F
Current: 2017 Grand Cherokee HEMI
2017 Kawasaki ZX-14r
2017 Harley RG Ultra
2017 Harley Fatboy S
Reply With Quote
  #126  
Old 01-12-2013, 04:44 PM
JCL's Avatar
JCL JCL is offline
Premier Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 11,853
JCL will become famous soon enoughJCL will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by noncom23 View Post
I guess I have to quote myself. JCL, do have your glasses?
Can you see the link that says Bureau of Statistics?
I can't see any further point in trying to educate you.
You are stuck with your views. At least read the post.
Noncom: right back at you. In post 117 you reopened this and referenced the bureau of criminology. That is what we were discussing. I pointed out that there is no such thing. Read the link i provided. Then you introduced the bureau of statistics. Now you are continuing with the bureau of statistics theme. Which one shall we discuss? The real point is that in post 117, the blog link article was a fabrication.
__________________
2007 X3 3.0si, 6 MT, Premium, White

Retired:
2008 535i, 6 MT, M Sport, Premium, Space Grey
2003 X5 3.0 Steptronic, Premium, Titanium Silver

2002 325xi 5 MT, Steel Grey
2004 Z4 3.0 Premium, Sport, SMG, Maldives Blue
Reply With Quote
  #127  
Old 01-12-2013, 04:47 PM
noncom23's Avatar
Premier Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Big D
Posts: 6,521
noncom23 is on a distinguished road
Geeeeez. That bureau at the Crime selection I
linked to has the same stats.
Thats the bureau incorrectly quoted in your
blog, saying the bureau didn't exist.
__________________
Mike F
Current: 2017 Grand Cherokee HEMI
2017 Kawasaki ZX-14r
2017 Harley RG Ultra
2017 Harley Fatboy S
Reply With Quote
  #128  
Old 01-12-2013, 05:20 PM
noncom23's Avatar
Premier Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Big D
Posts: 6,521
noncom23 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCL View Post
I am saying focus on the statistics for violent acts that included firearms, and don't warp the numbers by including acts that didn't, at least in relation to a discussion about gun violence. We would be able to better determine correlations then. Not clear on your bureau comment. There is no bureau. There is an institute, though. Those just aren't their numbers.



Disagree. I posted earlier in this thread on that exact point. I won't repeat it.



I am against gun violence. Guns are inanimate objects, I don't hate them or love them. I don't think much of gun culture. Not sure why there is apparent shame or blame in any of that. Don't understand your reference to a socialism. You know nothing about my politics. Socialism is a long way off, though.



You are entitled to your opinions. I don't know why you would ascribe disdain to your constitution to others here, maybe you don't mean me. The constitution talks about well-regulated in talking about the reasons for an armed society, so I don't personally see the conflict, but that is up to your country. I don't get a vote. But why is Modern Society capitalized?

I think if guns are going to be used to fight 'tyranny' then the challenge is that the oppression of society, the tyrants, are largely financial, not military. And shooting bankers doesn't sound like a solution to me.
To finish.


Amendment II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Just to be clear on the text of the Second Amendment.

Modern Society is capitalized from your previous quote elsewhere
on our disagreement about guns. This gives the taste of a
Utopian ideology where weapons don't exist. This is the way
I took it from your statement.
__________________
Mike F
Current: 2017 Grand Cherokee HEMI
2017 Kawasaki ZX-14r
2017 Harley RG Ultra
2017 Harley Fatboy S
Reply With Quote
  #129  
Old 01-12-2013, 06:24 PM
TerminatorX5's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Stafford, VA & Harrisburg, PA - USA
Posts: 5,735
TerminatorX5 is on a distinguished road
anyone here read the portion about the militia??? someone explain to me, what the militia is... in the terms of the XVIII century, not the XX and XXI centuries...

Besides, if any of you are planning to overthrow duly elected US Government, that is in direct violation of 18 USC 2385:


Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or
Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or
Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.
If two or more persons conspire to commit any offense named in this section, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.
As used in this section, the terms “organizes” and “organize”, with respect to any society, group, or assembly of persons, include the recruiting of new members, the forming of new units, and the regrouping or expansion of existing clubs, classes, and other units of such society, group, or assembly of persons.
Reply With Quote
  #130  
Old 01-12-2013, 06:30 PM
noncom23's Avatar
Premier Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Big D
Posts: 6,521
noncom23 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by TerminatorX5 View Post
anyone here read the portion about the militia??? someone explain to me, what the militia is... in the terms of the XVIII century, not the XX and XXI centuries...

Besides, if any of you are planning to overthrow duly elected US Government, that is in direct violation of 18 USC 2385:


Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or
Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or
Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.
If two or more persons conspire to commit any offense named in this section, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.
As used in this section, the terms “organizes” and “organize”, with respect to any society, group, or assembly of persons, include the recruiting of new members, the forming of new units, and the regrouping or expansion of existing clubs, classes, and other units of such society, group, or assembly of persons.
Have you read The Constitution?


Preamble
1 When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
2.1 We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
2.2 That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.
2.3 Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.
2.4 But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.
2.5 Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over these States. To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world.
Charges
3.1 He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.
[Excised passagte on slavery]
see Jefferson's draft He has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating it's most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating and carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere, or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. This piratical warfare, the opprobrium of infidels powers, is the warfare of the Christian king of Great Britain. He has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or to restrain this execrable commerce determining to keep open a market where MEN should be bought and sold: and that this assemblage of horrors might want no fact of distinguished die, he is now exciting those very people to rise in arms among us, and to purchase that liberty of which he has deprived them, by murdering the people upon whom he also obtruded them: thus paying off former crimes committed against the liberties of one people, with crimes which he urges them to commit against the lives of another.
Conclusion
4.1 In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.
Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren.
We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us.
We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence.
They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity.
We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.
5.1
Summation We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do.
And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
__________________
Mike F
Current: 2017 Grand Cherokee HEMI
2017 Kawasaki ZX-14r
2017 Harley RG Ultra
2017 Harley Fatboy S
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:09 AM.
vBulletin, Copyright 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0
© 2017 Xoutpost.com. All rights reserved. Xoutpost.com is a private enthusiast site not associated with BMW AG.
The BMW name, marks, M stripe logo, and Roundel logo as well as X3, X5 and X6 designations used in the pages of this Web Site are the property of BMW AG.
This web site is not sponsored or affiliated in any way with BMW AG or any of its subsidiaries.