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  #121  
Old 10-27-2021, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruzo View Post
If there's one thing I disagree with you on, it's your belief that what the unvaccinated do have no impact on the rest of the general public.
That's not what I said. I said very low risk of serious symptoms.

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Originally Posted by Maruzo View Post
We have sufficient amount of hosts (90 or so millions) remaining in the unvaccinated population to allow the virus time to develop more mutations, time to pass on its genetic materials.

You seem to discount this possibility by saying everyone have their freedom of choice and these unvaccinated have no impact on the rest of the population.
We are not eliminating covid. Even at 100% vaccination rates (which does not grant 100% immunity remember) in the US you would still have people travelling to and from other countries.

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Originally Posted by Maruzo View Post
Well what about the children? We're just now starting the vaccination effort on the young ones, while a substantial part of the adults remain liable for infection.
Yep, and as I said, I am eagerly awaiting when my entire family has a 0.02% (or whatever the serious symptom percentage is). At that point, CV19 becomes a talking point for the politicians and the zealots.

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Originally Posted by Maruzo View Post
IMHO covid is a public health and safety concern and "public health" means the decisions each and everyone of us make on how to deal with covid directly or indirectly affects the efforts to combat it.

Which is why there's strong merit for public mandates like mask wearing, social distancing, contact tracing, quarantine, and vaccination.

It is certainly not up to anyone of us layman to decide whether the danger of this pandemic raises to the level requiring mandates on vaccination.

That should be a decision by CDC experts.
What we ultimately disagree on is the existential threat posed by Covid. I shared your position of fear in the beginning before vaccines were readily available. And that was despite the knowledge that the vast majority of people who contract covid are either asymptomatic or have very minor symptoms. Now that we have the ability to protect ourselves by getting vaccinated and wearing masks, I am perfectly comfortable with those choosing not to take the vaccine.

Even without vaccines at all, or any preventative measures, Covid was never going to be the end of humanity. It's just not deadly enough. Which is a good thing. If everyone who contracted covid died, or even required a hospital stay... people would be lining up to take the vaccination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EODguy View Post
Here's a link to an aggregator of actual medical studies.

I don't know about the aggregator site but I'm just too lazy to post 91 links

https://brownstone.org/articles/79-r...ed-and-quoted/
I'll look into those later. Thank you.
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  #122  
Old 10-27-2021, 05:06 PM
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There have been almost 750,000 deaths from COVID in the US. Current average is a little over 1200 per day.

The reactions to the vaccines have been an extremely small percentage and by far very mild. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...se-events.html

A low estimate of 225,000 have been hospitalized due to COVID. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...se-events.html

The Delta variant is more contagious and has increased the percentage of cases of younger people. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...s/variant.html

The folks that probably or under no circumstances will be vaccinated are more likely republican. https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/the...ination-rates/

I believe in freedom but as much in justice for all. That has been lost by too many of us in the last few years. It has been lost in-- I can do what I want because I am free to do so. That's not the definition of freedom as it applies to US citizens. Our freedom ends when it infringes on the freedom of others. The unvaccinated are infringing on the freedom of those vaccinated.

Trump made not getting vaccinated a red badge of courage for republicans and several republican governors have perpetuated that idiotic notion to endear Trump supporters. Most of the resistance to being vaccinated has been politically motivated even though most that won't get vaccinated don't like politicians.

We have the freedom to stick a knife in someone's back but it is not without consequences. We have the freedom to choose whether to be vaccinated or not but it is coming to the point where there will be consequences in the form of mandates. That is evidenced by the mandates already exerted from the ground up rather than the top down. The unvaccinated are inviting the very mandates they are adamantly against and are putting themselves in the COVID line of fire on purpose. So many will learn firsthand how destructive COVID can be when prevention is safe and free. Around 1,200 Americans are dying each day. All but a very very few are the unvaccinated.

The justifications to not be vaccinated are unfathomable to me and so very very sad.
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Last edited by bcredliner; 10-27-2021 at 05:11 PM.
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  #123  
Old 10-27-2021, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcredliner View Post
Trump made not getting vaccinated a red badge of courage for republicans and several republican governors have perpetuated that idiotic notion to endear Trump supporters. Most of the resistance to being vaccinated has been politically motivated even though most that won't get vaccinated don't like politicians.

Letís not forget itís your Vice President Kamala Harris who started spreading fear about the vaccine. Trump was the guy pushing for it

https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/docu...ti-science-and

Snippet from the article:

September 6, 2020: Kamala Harris says "I think that's going to be an issue" when asked if she would get an approved coronavirus vaccine.
July 28, 2020: Joe Biden suggests the coronavirus vaccine won't be "real" and may not be "safe."
August 6, 2020: Biden says the vaccine is "not likely to go through all the tests that needs to be and the trials that are needed to be done."
September 3, 2020: Biden asks "Who's going to take the shot? Are you going to be the first one to say sign me up?"
September 7, 2020: Biden said he would take the coronavirus vaccine "only if we knew all of what went into it."



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  #124  
Old 10-27-2021, 05:35 PM
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Even if Harris didnít believe in vaccine early on, that point has no bearing on what BC is trying to say.

His post is really about common sense and the danger of personal freedom with no fear of consequences.

The deeper hope is for people to step up and do what needs to be done to protect oneself and also his/her neighbors.

But that doesnít seem to resonate with some people in this country.
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  #125  
Old 10-27-2021, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crystalworks View Post
What we ultimately disagree on is the existential threat posed by Covid. I shared your position of fear in the beginning before vaccines were readily available. And that was despite the knowledge that the vast majority of people who contract covid are either asymptomatic or have very minor symptoms. Now that we have the ability to protect ourselves by getting vaccinated and wearing masks, I am perfectly comfortable with those choosing not to take the vaccine.

Even without vaccines at all, or any preventative measures, Covid was never going to be the end of humanity. It's just not deadly enough. Which is a good thing. If everyone who contracted covid died, or even required a hospital stay... people would be lining up to take the vaccination.

I'll look into those later. Thank you.
I think you are wrong about this. Covid is equal to if not surpass the deadliness of the 1918 Spanish flu.

It is not just another new strain of your garden variety flu. Itís emergence signifies the beginning of a new batch of viruses with quicker and wider airborne infections, more serious injuries to the host, and much higher fatality rate than your regular flu.

What I fear isnít Covid, but the possibility that more of these types are on the horizon.

And if weíre still unprepared and citing personal freedom on the next big one, then... well weíll know then, wonít we?

The introduction of SARS 15 some years ago allowed for rapid advancement on MRNA vaccine technologies, which is one of the reason why we were able to create the new vaccine so quickly. SARS also brought about the common use of medical masks in the Asian countries, which is why many countries in Asia were quick to adapt the use of masks when covid hit.

I think if we as a country is able to adapt the same life saving strategies when the next big one hits, we should have the infection under control much quicker and within a much smaller demographic circle.

Just my 2 cents.
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Last edited by Maruzo; 10-27-2021 at 05:55 PM.
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  #126  
Old 10-27-2021, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E53Envyy View Post
Letís not forget itís your Vice President Kamala Harris who started spreading fear about the vaccine. Trump was the guy pushing for it

https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/docu...ti-science-and

Snippet from the article:

September 6, 2020: Kamala Harris says "I think that's going to be an issue" when asked if she would get an approved coronavirus vaccine.
July 28, 2020: Joe Biden suggests the coronavirus vaccine won't be "real" and may not be "safe."
August 6, 2020: Biden says the vaccine is "not likely to go through all the tests that needs to be and the trials that are needed to be done."
September 3, 2020: Biden asks "Who's going to take the shot? Are you going to be the first one to say sign me up?"
September 7, 2020: Biden said he would take the coronavirus vaccine "only if we knew all of what went into it."



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My mention of Trump and republicans was not political. It is simply what has happened.

The statements you posted have been fact checked many months ago and found to be taken out of context and/or very misleading. They are false. https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...accines-not-v/
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  #127  
Old 10-27-2021, 11:12 PM
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The Spanish flu killed roughly the same amount of people but at the time we only had 1/3rd of the population so... NOT even close as deaths equaled 20% of the population.

The mRNA vaccines were a deadly failure in EVERY trial (20 years worth) until now and NONE of the test subjects survived long term, although most died of reactions shortly after injection.

The Peoples Rights and freedom are NOT negated by the chance that you might catch covid19 from someone else. These vaccines either work or they don't.

If it works than who gives a shit if they are around someone who is unvaccinated?

If it doesn't work than the vaccinated are just as threatening to the vaccinated and unvaccinated. It's not rocket surgery it's just pure fear and ignorance.

Going off of the stats for ALL age groups your risk of not recovering from covid19 is 0.3%, but if looking at it by age groups then people 65 and older have a 2.0% chance of dying and 85 and over roughly an additional 2.5% and those numbers are still lower since it's not a 100% chance that you will even catch it, but more like less than 50% based solely on the number of people who didn't pass it on to other members of their household who lived with them. (anecdotal evidence only)

In the United States the number of deaths in children is so low that it cannot even be considered a statistical anomaly (43) out of approximately 335,000,000 and every single one of those had a comorbidity such as severe asthma, leukemia or heart defects.

Two basic things to understand....

1. Viruses mutate due to pressure of survival i.e. if it's not hard to survive in say one group but has a hard time in a different group the virus in the difficult group will mutate at a much higher rate whereas those in an easier environment will mutate much, much more slowly.

2. DNA that is subjected to something like mRNA, viruses, radiation will at some point change or mutate. A perfect example is radiation. A person exposed to 50 rads at 18 years old has a very high chance of developing cancer, but a person exposed to 50 rads at the age 40 has a lower chance solely due to the number of times less the DNA (telomeres specifically) will reproduce before death.


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  #128  
Old 10-27-2021, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcredliner View Post
My mention of Trump and republicans was not political. It is simply what has happened.



The statements you posted have been fact checked many months ago and found to be taken out of context and/or very misleading. They are false. https://www.politifact.com/factcheck...accines-not-v/
No your statement was 100% political and considering Trump has pushed for people to take the vaccine (both in and out of office) shows you to be politically biased.

The statements he posted were not taken out of context unless you believe that when asked if she would take the vaccine Harris said "No, I don't trust any vaccine Trump had a hand in" and you have based your belief on what politifact said she meant instead of using your own eyes and watching the interview yourself.

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  #129  
Old 10-28-2021, 01:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruzo View Post
I think you are wrong about this. Covid is equal to if not surpass the deadliness of the 1918 Spanish flu.
We'll find out. Drawing parallels to the Spanish flu is difficult due to the time it occurred. Limited communication, medical technology, vaccinations, population size/density, etc.

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Originally Posted by Maruzo View Post
It is not just another new strain of your garden variety flu. Itís emergence signifies the beginning of a new batch of viruses with quicker and wider airborne infections, more serious injuries to the host, and much higher fatality rate than your regular flu.

What I fear isnít Covid, but the possibility that more of these types are on the horizon.
There certainly will be. Naturally (and possibly unnaturally if we keep growing these things in labs in the name of "research"). It happens every 20-40 years, as in some of the virus' you have mentioned. And life goes on... we get scared for a year and move on. We do it when Zika pops up, or SARS, or some other virus. We take the precautions with bug repellent or whatever the recommendations are for that particular thing. And continue on.

In the US in 2020, covid wasn't the number 1 cause of death. It was third. Half as many deaths as the number 1, heart disease. CDC Mortality Data 2020. I don't want the government to be able to mandate that everyone run 2 miles every other day to save lives. We have out-paced that 2020 figure this year due to it just starting in 2020, but another ~181000 people will need to die by years end to catch the #2 cause of death which was cancer. Currently, a 2% mortality rate in the US for CV19. That number gets smaller when you break it down by age group. And even smaller when you factor in the vaccine protections.

I admire you and bcredliner wanting to save every potential life possible. I'm more pragmatic. People getting sick or dying is always sad. I know people who have done both, as I'm sure you both do. I don't want to ban drinking because drunks drive and I don't want to give the government carte blanche in regards to vaccinations because people choose not to take them. Excepting public schools, as I've mentioned before.
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  #130  
Old 10-28-2021, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EODguy View Post

If it works than who gives a shit if they are around someone who is unvaccinated?

If it doesn't work than the vaccinated are just as threatening to the vaccinated and unvaccinated. It's not rocket surgery it's just pure fear and ignorance.


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Let's just work on these viewpoint of yours.

1. If it works we are still at the mercy of those who are unvaccinated, because they can pass on virus if they do get infected and due to lack of antibody the virus multiplies and fills his entire body so he becomes a walking virus spreader. Which means the chances of a virus clinging to a vaccinated person is now much higher than if both person are vaccinated.

It's the same concept of virus transmission between 2 person who are both masked vs one person masked while the other unmasked.

You didn't acknowledge this concept when I posted back then, don't think you're going to all of a sudden change your mind and agree to it now.

That doesn't mean the concept is false. It just means you failed to see its significance.

2. If it doesn't work, that's still just a miniscule percentage of the vaccinated that has the breakout case. Which means the vaccination as a whole worked. And your placement on the threat of a less than 1 percentage of the vaccinated without addressing the danger of the 90 millions or so who isn't.

That's just bad math and logic, imho.
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