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  #111  
Old 10-24-2021, 06:30 PM
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Sorry for length of post.

[QUOTE=EODguy;1211752]"Most numbers are done as say 150,000,000 total vaccinated vs 25,000,000 (15-25) vaccinated of which 50% are male and 20% getting myocarditis = huge risk numbers" ~EODGUY

I'm not getting your point. Are you saying that 20% of the vaccinated male age group of 15-25 are getting myocarditis? Where does the 20% come from?

As I said previously (above) they mix numbers to obfuscate the problems.

Among persons with reported myocarditis after mRNA vaccination, the median age was 26 years (range*=*12–94 years), with median symptom onset interval of 3 days after vaccination (range*=*0–179). Among 1,194 reports for which patient age was known, 687 were among persons aged <30 years and 507 were among persons aged ≥30 years; of 1,212 with sex reported, 923 were male, and 289 were female.§§

I'm not getting your point here either unless it is simply that cases are largely younger folks and it happens to males more than females. Using your number of 1194 vaccinated individuals that get myocarditis, how many vaccinated in those age groups did not get myocarditis? Regardless, most of the cases of myocarditis have been very mild and resolved on their own. The risk of getting myocarditis is much higher for those that have not been vaccinated and are infected by COVID. Even then it is very low. [url]https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/new-information-for-parents-on-myocarditis-and-covid-19-vaccines-202107012523 See paragraph 2.

Myocarditis causes damage to the heart muscles usually via scarring and as I'm sure you know. Damage done to heart muscle does NOT heal back to previous levels of health and leaves one open to cardiac events more easily.

So you are basically aging someone's heart maybe 1 year, 20 years or more depending on damage and no one wants to have their child end up with a heart like a middle aged person.

Not all cases of myocarditis damage the heart.
It entirely depends on the severity. 10-15% get myocarditis a second time. See source-https://www.myocarditisfoundation.org/about-myocarditis/


Getting a vaccine should always be an individual's decision but to mandate shots for school aged children (under 18) the LEAST at risk for death from covid19 yet with the highest risk of heart damage makes zero sense.
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Last edited by bcredliner; 10-24-2021 at 06:35 PM.
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  #112  
Old 10-25-2021, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by EODguy View Post
CW

Didn't mean for you to take it as impugning your pride, etc. only that too many people just take whatever they are told as gospel since it comes from a tv anchor, politician, doctor or whatever with the belief that they MUST know correctly. But many of (if not all) get some kind of messiah complex and refuse to even make a cognizant argument for their position.
No worries. I forget how the politics forum can get under my skin at times. Why I take breaks from it, hah, maybe I'm due for another.

I agree, those relying on MSM for their news are either lazy, easily led, or don't have the internet. That last one is probably unlikely in these days of smart phones. I don't care which of the major news outlets you watch, read, or listen to... they all have an agenda. It's their business. They need to make money to survive.

I tend to get most of my news from tech sector commentators as most news nowadays is at least tangentially tech related. They have no sponsors or income on the line so aren't afraid to just call it as they see it.

I do have to disagree on your figures based on what I've seen. You'd have to give some sources of that as I'm not seeing how you're arriving at some of those percentages. I had to go look up the myocarditis stats as I was concerned after reading your post since we will be choosing whether or not to get our kids vaccinated in the next couple of months. But when I looked it up the numbers did not look like they had a large risk. I'll keep an eye on it though and since our munchkins won't be back in a school setting around groups of people until Aug 2022... we have time to wait a few months after vaccine approval if we wish.
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  #113  
Old 10-26-2021, 11:30 AM
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I think if you want to talk about the pros and cons of vaccinating children, you should also address what the adults in the family are doing to prevent the spread of the virus.

If the adults in the family are refusing to vaccinate citing individual freedom of choice, then refusing to vaccinate their children citing risk of heart damage for their children, you have a family of potential virus carriers who helps to prolong the pandemic, not shorten it.

We have billions of people on this planet who desperately needs the vaccine to curtail the spread of this virus in their country but do not have the political power or connection to secure them. And then we have Americans who have that exact luxury of taking the vaccine, free, at any time of their choosing.

My local cvs won’t even ask you whether you qualify for the booster shot or not. They are just happy to administer it to another person. I spoke to the pharmacist who administered the shots, he says he’s just happy that we show up, and that one more person he gives the shot to, means one less chance of spreading this virus.

To each his own, I suppose. Personally, I think it’s incredibly selfish and entitled to think your actions and choices does not have an adverse effect on the well being of the people around you.

I cover my mouth and sneeze into my elbow. I see the vaccination effort is an extension of that common courtesy for our fellow neighbors.
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  #114  
Old 10-26-2021, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maruzo View Post
Personally, I think it’s incredibly selfish and entitled to think your actions and choices does not have an adverse effect on the well being of the people around you.
I don't think it's selfish at all to be concerned with the unknown. Just because you and I are satisfied with the data released regarding vaccine safety does not mean all will be. We can disagree with their decision, but berating it or acting "holier than thou" isn't going to anyone any good either.

At this point, the unvaccinated pose a very small risk to the vaccinated population. That's why the hospital numbers are so skewed to the unvaccinated population. Let them make, and live, with their own decisions. I'll feel like we can go back to almost totally normal (personally, my family, not the country) once the kids are vaccinated. AFAIAC, at that point, the pandemic is effectively over for us. If we suffer a breakthrough case(s), the symptoms are likely to be very mild and hospitalization a very small likelyhood. But at least we can start taking the kids out again to the park, museums, and seeing their friends via non digital means. Can't wait.
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  #115  
Old 10-26-2021, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crystalworks View Post
I don't think it's selfish at all to be concerned with the unknown. Just because you and I are satisfied with the data released regarding vaccine safety does not mean all will be. We can disagree with their decision, but berating it or acting "holier than thou" isn't going to anyone any good either.

At this point, the unvaccinated pose a very small risk to the vaccinated population. That's why the hospital numbers are so skewed to the unvaccinated population. Let them make, and live, with their own decisions. I'll feel like we can go back to almost totally normal (personally, my family, not the country) once the kids are vaccinated. AFAIAC, at that point, the pandemic is effectively over for us. If we suffer a breakthrough case(s), the symptoms are likely to be very mild and hospitalization a very small likelyhood. But at least we can start taking the kids out again to the park, museums, and seeing their friends via non digital means. Can't wait.
By your logic (not disagreeing), then the breakout cases among the vaccinated could be largedly attributed to the unvaccinated. So if purplcity and eod places big emphasis on the ineffectiveness of the vaccine due to the breakout cases, doesn't that prove the unvaccinated is posing a serious risk to the vaccinated population?

You can't have your cake and eat it too, cw. Not saying you are, but the logic behind the breakout cases being the reason for not getting vaccinated, it's not sound.
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  #116  
Old 10-26-2021, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Maruzo View Post
By your logic (not disagreeing), then the breakout cases among the vaccinated could be largedly attributed to the unvaccinated. So if purplcity and eod places big emphasis on the ineffectiveness of the vaccine due to the breakout cases, doesn't that prove the unvaccinated is posing a serious risk to the vaccinated population?

You can't have your cake and eat it too, cw. Not saying you are, but the logic behind the breakout cases being the reason for not getting vaccinated, it's not sound.
Breakout cases are a small risk to vaccinated public. Do they happen? Yep, though at a fairly small percentage. Those numbers will rise as the efficacy of the original round of vaccines wanes. But more importantly than being infected, is being protected from hospitalization or serious illness. That's why I quantified with small in regards to the risk. I don't mind getting sick, it happens all the time with kids in school, but I want to be able to manage it at home like any other mild illness.

I didn't say breakout cases were reasoning to not be vaccinated, but rather the unsurety regarding the safety (short term or long term) of the vaccines is an understandable concern some people have. We may not agree with their conclusion regarding the data, but after children can be vaccinated, unvaccinated individuals will pose little threat of serious illness. It will be akin to those who do not opt for the flu shot at that point. At least, that is, if the data being reported is accurate. <<< But that's a whole other discussion. LoL
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  #117  
Old 10-26-2021, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by crystalworks View Post
At least, that is, if the data being reported is accurate. &lt;&lt;&lt; But that's a whole other discussion. LoL

Now that’s the truth.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...virus-numbers/
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  #118  
Old 10-26-2021, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by crystalworks View Post
Breakout cases are a small risk to vaccinated public. Do they happen? Yep, though at a fairly small percentage. Those numbers will rise as the efficacy of the original round of vaccines wanes. But more importantly than being infected, is being protected from hospitalization or serious illness. That's why I quantified with small in regards to the risk. I don't mind getting sick, it happens all the time with kids in school, but I want to be able to manage it at home like any other mild illness.

I didn't say breakout cases were reasoning to not be vaccinated, but rather the unsurety regarding the safety (short term or long term) of the vaccines is an understandable concern some people have. We may not agree with their conclusion regarding the data, but after children can be vaccinated, unvaccinated individuals will pose little threat of serious illness. It will be akin to those who do not opt for the flu shot at that point. At least, that is, if the data being reported is accurate. <<< But that's a whole other discussion. LoL
If there's one thing I disagree with you on, it's your belief that what the unvaccinated do have no impact on the rest of the general public.

We have sufficient amount of hosts (90 or so millions) remaining in the unvaccinated population to allow the virus time to develop more mutations, time to pass on its genetic materials.

You seem to discount this possibility by saying everyone have their freedom of choice and these unvaccinated have no impact on the rest of the population.

Well what about the children? We're just now starting the vaccination effort on the young ones, while a substantial part of the adults remain liable for infection.

IMHO covid is a public health and safety concern and "public health" means the decisions each and everyone of us make on how to deal with covid directly or indirectly affects the efforts to combat it.

Which is why there's strong merit for public mandates like mask wearing, social distancing, contact tracing, quarantine, and vaccination.

It is certainly not up to anyone of us layman to decide whether the danger of this pandemic raises to the level requiring mandates on vaccination.

That should be a decision by CDC experts.
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  #119  
Old 10-27-2021, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by crystalworks View Post
No worries. I forget how the politics forum can get under my skin at times. Why I take breaks from it, hah, maybe I'm due for another.



I agree, those relying on MSM for their news are either lazy, easily led, or don't have the internet. That last one is probably unlikely in these days of smart phones. I don't care which of the major news outlets you watch, read, or listen to... they all have an agenda. It's their business. They need to make money to survive.



I tend to get most of my news from tech sector commentators as most news nowadays is at least tangentially tech related. They have no sponsors or income on the line so aren't afraid to just call it as they see it.



I do have to disagree on your figures based on what I've seen. You'd have to give some sources of that as I'm not seeing how you're arriving at some of those percentages. I had to go look up the myocarditis stats as I was concerned after reading your post since we will be choosing whether or not to get our kids vaccinated in the next couple of months. But when I looked it up the numbers did not look like they had a large risk. I'll keep an eye on it though and since our munchkins won't be back in a school setting around groups of people until Aug 2022... we have time to wait a few months after vaccine approval if we wish.
Here's a link to an aggregator of actual medical studies.

I don't know about the aggregator site but I'm just too lazy to post 91 links

https://brownstone.org/articles/79-r...ed-and-quoted/

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  #120  
Old 10-27-2021, 11:34 AM
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I'll take Covid in Floriduh for $100...or &quot;Is DeSantis toast?&quot;

Mandating the vaccine is absurd. We don’t know the long term effects!!! I’m not going to blindly follow “experts” when most are pushing their own agenda without any accountability.

I really hope there are no long term effects but I can’t disregard the warnings from other “experts” who strongly warn against the vaccine. Thus I have to decide on my own and I’m thankful that I have that freedom remaining.

Is it not enough for you to know that you’re fully vaccinated and the likelihood of you catching covid and being hospitalized is basically zero?

And the thought of unvaccinated people causing mutations is valid but I’d be more concerned vaccinated people unknowingly spread covid due to the minor cold-like symptoms. You do know that vaccinated and unvaccinated people are equally as contagious (well at least a couple study’s came to that conclusion but they’re probably canceled at this point). The vaccine is like putting a bandaid on a gunshot wound. Covid is still going to spread and people are going to be less careful resulting in an increased mutation chance.

And let’s not forget the fact that vaccinated people could cause a more deadly mutation. I thought of a better way to explain it:

Assume an unvaccinated person has an immunity (an arbitrary value) of: 5

A vaccinated person had an immunity of: 10

Suppose covid has an infection of: 6

Thus covid will infect unvaccinated people but cannot break the immunity of the vaccinated people.

Now any covid mutation in an unvaccinated person has to be above 5 or else it won’t survive in the host. So we can have mutations ranging from 5-X where X would be certain death

Now consider the vaccinated person where the covid mutation would have to be above 10. So any mutation would range from 10-X.

Obviously in both situations you could have a covid mutation of 15 for example, but the point here from my logical breakdown is the chance of a more deadly covid mutation would come from a vaccinated individual.

Now I am making an assumption, that is, in a breakthrough case the vaccinated individual still has their immunity of 10.



What do you think of this article:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/m...ries-m253drrnf

Yeah sure it could be a coincidence but I’d be inclined to look into it. Just like that plane where everyone was fully vaccinated and covid tested. Why is the government dismissing all cases that do not agree with the vaccine?

Anyway guys, stay safe!




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